Wise General Rosecrans?

[W.Barksdale]

Hi!

In a current PBEM game against soundoff we are having an issue in KY.

To me it seems that General Rosecrans was retreating in the face of superior numbers. Part of the confusion lies in the fact that the battle window is displaying all forces in the region rather than only the forces engaged.

Is it possible for a neutral 3rd party to open up both sides .trn files and see if the string of events makes sense to them? It makes sense to me, however, I am only looking at the rebel mail box

The previous turn is available so you can see the orders. And the current folder has the results. Thank you for any help!

[Daxil]

You should send this to support@ageod.com. Not trying to be condescending, but they've evaliuated situations accurately for me. It's probably Pocus.

[Spharv2]

No need for Pocus, this one was easy. Rosecrans is in defensive, normal hold, but he also has the "Evade Combat" order selected. This button always takes priority over the actual stance orders given in a turn.

[Daxil]

No need for Pocus, this one was easy. Rosecrans is in defensive, normal hold, but he also has the "Evade Combat" order selected. This button always takes priority over the actual stance orders given in a turn.

Nice to have you here. That only takes priority if the unit is moving, right?

[Spharv2]

Pretty sure not...a unit will try to evade even if stationary I believe. In some cases, it means that they will retreat out of an area to avoid combat. Could be wrong on this, but I believe that's correct.

[Daxil]

Hmm, just noticed this.

[ATTACH]4251[/ATTACH]

[soundoff]

Only just discovered Daxil that I now must ignore that toolip instuction. I've been playing to it believing that it worked as specified...now I discover it as much rubbish as many of the battle reports. I wonder what other gems of how the game works that I should disregard

[W.Barksdale]

Hmm I always thought it only worked while moving? Maybe I caught Rosecrans column while still it was still moving?

[soundoff]

No Greg....as I gave you the details....he'd arrived on day 5.

It really does irritate me though that endless manhours can be spent on .....'should one two three or thirty three boats blockade a river'.....but a simple thing like making sure that tooltips are accurate is overlooked by every progammer and beta tester.....seems you have to be a gronard to understand how to play the game .....and yes I am so darned angry....and I think with just cause.

And no I dont apologise for the rant.

[W.Barksdale]

Hmm then I still think Rosecrans was saving his troops, I had my whole army of MS attacking...nearly 10 divisions...I don't recall, how many divisions did Rosy have?

[Spharv2]

Hmm, just noticed this.

[ATTACH]4251[/ATTACH]

Hmm...I could be wrong, lord knows it wouldn't be the first time.

[Spharv2]

Okay, looking back at the files and re-running the turn a few times, here's what I think happened.

1. Rosecrans was moving. So the tooltip is right. Yes, he arrived on day 5, but that command doesn't work like that, it can't, or it would be darn near useless for raiders, which is mostly what it was designed for. Not sure why he was set to evade, but he was, so he did.

2. The evade command doesn't always work obviously, in 4 of the 5 re-dos I ran, he was caught in both Kentucky territories and basically beat to hell.

3. The multiple commands in the areas resulted in bits and pieces of your force being caught by a much superior rebel army and wiped out. Since NM gains and losses are based on units destroyed, this is what cost you the most.

Perhaps the tooltip could make it a bit clearer, but those are meant to be small bits of helpful advice, they can't always be perfectly clear because they need to stay contained into a small area. I'm not going to defend the proofreading of betas, yeah we miss some things, it happens. It also happens that this wasn't one of them.

[Daxil]

It seems like some of the tips are descriptive, some are vague. I don't know if this was a design decision. We know that it takes 5 days to destroy a depot, for example, but railroad work? Tis a great mystery.

[soundoff]

Okay, looking back at the files and re-running the turn a few times, here's what I think happened.

1. Rosecrans was moving. So the tooltip is right. Yes, he arrived on day 5, but that command doesn't work like that, it can't, or it would be darn near useless for raiders, which is mostly what it was designed for. Not sure why he was set to evade, but he was, so he did.

2. The evade command doesn't always work obviously, in 4 of the 5 re-dos I ran, he was caught in both Kentucky territories and basically beat to hell.

3. The multiple commands in the areas resulted in bits and pieces of your force being caught by a much superior rebel army and wiped out. Since NM gains and losses are based on units destroyed, this is what cost you the most.

Perhaps the tooltip could make it a bit clearer, but those are meant to be small bits of helpful advice, they can't always be perfectly clear because they need to stay contained into a small area. I'm not going to defend the proofreading of betas, yeah we miss some things, it happens. It also happens that this wasn't one of them.

Its not about whether or not a unit or command gets creamed its whether or not I can have faith in the tooltips doing what they say they do. According to you Spharv2 at least with this tooltip its just there as a helpful bit of advice....but not really that accurate. If its activated it holds for the complete 15 day cycle. Never mind if you only take one day to move. If its active its active for the whole turn. At least I think thats what you are saying? In which case the tooltip is wrong. And it's nice to have discovered that the tooltips are to be taken 'with a pinch of salt' and not literally.

[Jabberwock]

1. Rosecrans was moving. So the tooltip is right. Yes, he arrived on day 5, but that command doesn't work like that, it can't, or it would be darn near useless for raiders, which is mostly what it was designed for. Not sure why he was set to evade, but he was, so he did.

It does work like that. After you arrive somewhere, you are no longer evading. That's why I give my raiders orders for 16 days or more.

[hkbhsi]

Now i understand why my cavalry is always unable to evade enemy forces when it arrives in an area in just a few days.

[cobraII]

It seems like some of the tips are descriptive, some are vague. I don't know if this was a design decision. We know that it takes 5 days to destroy a depot, for example, but railroad work? Tis a great mystery.

the railroad get destroyed during the supply stage cause i seen it counting the supply thing and then teh railroad gets broken and then the days process

[soundoff]

I would love to know how it does work. Either its just for the move segment or the whole turn.....talk about you say potatoe and I say potarto. And if it is just for the move segment then I'd still like to know why an active general with a defend\normal stance retreats before battle is even joined as happened.

[Daxil]

the railroad get destroyed during the supply stage cause i seen it counting the supply thing and then teh railroad gets broken and then the days process

Actually I think it happens on day 1. I've had adjacent units on rails next to an enemy unit and it only takes a day to move. You can also knock them out of the province before they finish the destruction, I think. But again, everyone just seems to have educated guesses and respects that they may be sometimes wrong I guess.

[Spharv2]

It does work like that. After you arrive somewhere, you are no longer evading. That's why I give my raiders orders for 16 days or more.

You positive on that? I've had evasions when units were given less than a full turn's orders. I suppose it could have been a normal evasion, but it makes more sense for a unit given evasion orders to evade until told otherwise.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jabberwock]

Never positive, because i don't own the source code. Even then ...

If I stop an evading cav at day 15, it is more likely to get caught by pursuers. The chance goes up as the days of orders go down. If the orders are for 16 days or more, I stop wherever I am at day 15, and only have the normal very low chance of getting caught while evading. If I give attack orders along with evade, the unit or stack will attack anything in the final destination region if it has time. Cavalry do sometimes do the normal retreat or don't advance routines, whether evade is on or not.

[soundoff]

If the tooltip works as it says (which I'm happy with because thats the way I've been playing it) then Spharv2's orginal reply to Barksdale, quoted below, does not hold true.

No need for Pocus, this one was easy. Rosecrans is in defensive, normal hold, but he also has the "Evade Combat" order selected. This button always takes priority over the actual stance orders given in a turn.

In which case we are back to the original dilemma between Barksdale and myself which is how the heck can an active commander with a Blue\Orange stance retreat prior to battle commencing. If its down to 'overwhelming odds' then by heck it should happen far more often than it does for I dont know anyone of us that does not try to assemble 'overwhelming odds' prior to attacking. Totally totally bemused

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[squarian]

It does work like that. After you arrive somewhere, you are no longer evading. That's why I give my raiders orders for 16 days or more.

I'm confuuuussssed.

Alright - the evade special order works only as long as the unit in question is moving. Once it reaches its destination, it is no longer "evading". Have I got it right?

So does that mean it's pointless to click evade for ships in the Blockade box? Once there, they've reached their destination, yes?

[Jabberwock]

You have the first part right.

I've haven't played with it enough to give a good answer for ships in the blockade box. There is enough anomolous behavior there that I'm fairly certain it is handled by completely separate code. That's one for Pocus. I've seen advice going either way - yes it matters, no it doesn't. I play it safe and turn it on if I don't want combat. Sometimes I avoid combat there, sometimes I don't.

[Daxil]

So does that mean it's pointless to click evade for ships in the Blockade box? Once there, they've reached their destination, yes?

From what I've heard the blockade boxes work differently. If you have evade on there your ships should evade, I've been told.

[W.Barksdale]

I just looked up the numbers. In Hickman, KY, where combat first was evaded Bory had 3728 pwr in the HQ and 2 corps, Rosy had 1429. 2.6 to 1 ratio.

Chickamuaga all over again in KY. Rosy tells his troops "If you care to live any longer, get away from here."