Question(s) about river crossing

[Franciscus]

I have some doubts about river crossings and blockade. In patch 1.10, acording to the readme:

"...
- changed: To prevent troops from crossing rivers, you must now have at least 4 ships elements in offensive posture (was 1 in any posture)
(...)
- changed: Minor crossing links can now be interdicted by fleets (some navigable rivers have minor crossing)"

Questions:
1. At first I (and others) interpreted the first point as meaning that 4 ship elements in offensive prohibited river crossings. Nevertheless, looking through the map, there are sections of rivers that indeed need only 4 ship elements to blockade, but others that according to the tooltip need 8 or even 12 elements to blockade (ex:all the red river segments requires 8 ship elements to be blockaded but Joseph's run, below Vicksburg, needs only 4 to be blockaded ).
So, some sections need 4 elements but others need more ? This is not at all clear. And what is the reason for this difference ? ? (it does not seem related, as at first I thought, to the existence of harbors or towns, or to the fact that the waters are shallow or not - check the exemples above...)
And is "blockade" the same as crossing interdiction ?

2. I do not understand the 2nd point, maybe because of my english interpretation. Some navigable rivers have minor crossing... so, other navigable rivers do not ??

I would like some clarifications on this, including if possible, a more full explanation about river links and crossings...

(Note that this doubts have arisen due to a problem reported in the spanish forum by Manstein, that in a PBEM game as USA though that he had the Potomac river in front of Washigton blocked by 4 of his northern ship elements but Longstreet's corps apparently was able to cross unnoposed. In reality in the tooltip of the river section in front of Washington, it says that at least 12 ship elements are needed to blockade...)

Thanks

[Jabberwock]

Blockade and interdiction are not the same thing. If all the river sections that can be entered from a particular harbor are blockaded, then that harbor loses 50% of its production.

Interdiction stops troops moving from one side to the other. That uses the four ships in offensive rule.

[Coregonas]

Thanks Franciscus for your help.

We did report a rare link connection, but seems still not reviewed

PORT TOBACCO - ALEXANDRIA is a NORMAL link, so anyone can cross towards Washington easily without having to go northwards, thorough Montgomery.

It doesnt matter if a thousand ships are in the potomac...



The normal way to go is the one Polk is going thorough.

But another (normally ungarrisoned by a corps!) is allowed, going to Port Tobacco then Washington. Seems a Major BUG to me, but dont know if there is some kind of easy connection between those areas.

[Franciscus]

Blockade and interdiction are not the same thing. If all the river sections that can be entered from a particular harbor are blockaded, then that harbor loses 50% of its production.

Interdiction stops troops moving from one side to the other. That uses the four ships in offensive rule.

Thanks, Jabber. But either we are talking different things or else I am losing it
Why all sections of the Red River (just a example) need 8 ships to blockade (blockade what ?) when Joseph's run, just below Vicksburg, needs only 4 ??

[Coregonas]

Jabber is talking about blockade PORTS, so they get a production penalty.

But our problem is on troop movement --- i.e. interdiction.

[lodilefty]

Thanks, Jabber. But either we are talking different things or else I am losing it
Why all sections of the Red River (just a example) need 8 ships to blockade (blockade what ?) when Joseph's run, just below Vicksburg, needs only 4 ??

I belive that ALL water regions get a defined 'blockade requirement' even if no port exists.... it has nothing to do with blocking a crossing.

...as to why some are 4, some are 8... ??

[Jabberwock]

The tooltips on the map that tell you how many ships are required to blockade a particular region - have nothing to do with interdiction.

EDIT: Nice timing lodi.

[Rafiki]

...as to why some are 4, some are 8... ??

Presence of enemy forts?

[Franciscus]

Presence of enemy forts?

No, not a single fort on Red river... and this is just an example. If you want to check, the various river sections all through the map have different blockade values (4 to 12), and some I do not understand.
But the problem of the crossing between Alexandria and PortTobacco is indeed more important

[Coregonas]

Blockading / interdiction needed ship numbers is NOT THE PROBLEM.

It is the normal (ie nor river/water) LINK allowing a (unrealistic?) rear assault to Washington.

A thousand ships can not stop that crossing... as now it is defined!

EDIT:
Look at the figure (on 3rd post here up) showing LINKS

the link Alex / Tobacco is WHITE, instead of the BLUE one directly connecting Washington with Alexandria

[Jabberwock]

Now that what is or is not the problem has been fully clarified, I think we need to hear from Gray or an AGEod representative on this. The crossing between Alexandria and Port Tobacco is almost certainly a data bug, and if that is the case, it should be fixed.

Then, we should go back to discussing the number of elements required to blockade different regions. (Although I reserve the option to bring it up inappropriately, just to see if I can make my esteemed GC counterpart blow a gasket.)

[Gray_Lensman]

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[arsan]

Hi!

Sorry Gray but land units can cross

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[GShock]

Am truly surprised to see this shouldn't be allowed...as with the other thread on interdicting gunboats, i don't understand why this move shouldnt' be allowed while the Confluent crossing is.

Another thing that surprises me is that all of you just realized about this now...it's a move i made very very often and, thinking it legit, i never reported it.

[arsan]

As i understand it, the Potomac at this point is not considered a river in game. Its a sea zone (coastal waters).
A land unit should use riverine movement to try to make this move, not just walk over the water. And be subjected to a possible attack by naval forces present there. Not the mention that probably CSA supplies can also cross the river unobstructed.
As its is now, you can not block the crossing with ships as it is not a river, nor can engage the units on riverine movement with your ships as the land units just "fly by".
What is more... i think that if that units fight with USA troops on Port Tobacco area they will not even have the penalty for having crossed a river, as the link line is not blue colored
Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[arsan]

Thanks a lot Gray!
I will test it this evening.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[arsan]

Hi

Tested your fix and it works all right!
Now, to go from Alexandria to Port Tobacco, you must pass by Washingon DC.
By the way, a related question..
Does somebody know for certain if boats can block enemy lands units movement from Alexandria to Washington??
I'm not sure as on the map part of the zones border looks like sea zone and part just look like a small (non navigable) river.
Regards

[ANTONYO]

Yes, boats can block enemy lands units movement from Alexandria to Washington.

[chainsaw]

okay, I was able to determine the immediate cause of this problem and squash it. Basically, there was a (#26 Naval Interdiction) JumpLink between the two regions (110 Charles ,MD and 116 Fairfax, VA). This link had been in the game since its inception (v1.00).
.

Yeah, it's called the new $2,500 million USD Woodrow Wilson Bridge

Photos:

[chainsaw]

Yes, boats can block enemy lands units movement from Alexandria to Washington.

Which is sort of irrelevant - if the CSA had taken Alexandria in force they could have shelled the Capitol from the south (right bank) of the Potomac. No need to actually occupy the city as they could have forced a Federal evacuation. I would think the political and NM loss would have been just as severe as if it was occupied. Perhaps occupation of Alexandria should force the "Move the Capitol" option for the Union player and loss of NM...

What a great "what if" scenario: After 2nd Manassas Jackson takes Alexandria and Arlington (Lee's home before the war - now site of Arlington Cemetery) and bombards the unfinished capitol dome!

...

[soundoff]

okay, I was able to determine the immediate cause of this problem and squash it. Basically, there was a (#26 Naval Interdiction) JumpLink between the two regions (110 Charles ,MD and 116 Fairfax, VA). This link had been in the game since its inception (v1.00). In this case, it wasn't even needed, but since it was there, it was causing the problem.

My earlier post that mentioned it, did not think it had anything to do with Land units attempting to cross a given body of water and I don't think in previous versions of the game it had any effect on Land units and thereby was not noticed before.

However... since the river crossing logic was recently written to accomodate changes in how naval units block land units from crossing, I believe this bug was somehow introduced with that change in logic. As Pocus stated, enough Naval units will block the JumpLinks between 2 regions. In this case, though the type of JumpLink was not actually associated with Land units, the logic seems to have seen that there was a JumpLink in place that was not being effectively interdicted and allowed the land units to thereby cross regardless of the fact that it was not a land type JumpLink. By removing the unneeded JumpLink, it removes the ability altogether for land units to cross between those two regions.

Here's a quick fix, that should immediately fix the problem and in this case should work with games already started. Note that it's Zipped in (Fast Install) format.

Regards
.

Gray, as a techno moron who has as much understanding of the internal workings of a processor as a monkey has with a microwave, can you kindly let me into the secret as to how you install the 'fast fix'. I can just about manage one of Pocus's normal patches.

Regards

[Franciscus]

Gray, as a techno moron who has as much understanding of the internal workings of a processor as a monkey has with a microwave, can you kindly let me into the secret as to how you install the 'fast fix'. I can just about manage one of Pocus's normal patches.

Regards

Hello, soundoff
Gray's files (this one, his "RR mods", etc) are simply zip files. You should download it to your computer (I usually dl to my desktop) and then use a zip utility (I use 7-zip, but the plain windows program to manage zip files will do). This particular file contains a folder - gamedata - with a subfolder-regions - that contains two rgn files, that should replace the ones in the game directory. Either you do this manually or simply "extract" or "copy" the gamedata folder of the zip file to your game directory (something like C:\Program Files\AGEod's American Civil War\ACW\) and when prompted answer yes to overwrite the old .rgn files; it is done.

Hope this helps.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[soundoff]

I thankee most kindly Gray and Francisus it was not 'pointing the extraction to the correct location manually' that I was a doing of wrong