Where is Jeb???

[pepe4158]

well found this at an equistrian center:





You are here: Experts > Recreation/Outdoors > Horses > Horseback Riding > Traveling by Horse


Topic: Horseback Riding

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Expert: Holly H.
Date: 8/13/2006
Subject: Traveling by Horse

Question
I don't have a horse, but I'm doing research for something else. Do
you know, on average, how many miles you could ride in a day? If
you were traveling by horse? I know it depends on many factors,
like riders, baggage, condition of horse.

But I'd just like to know, on average, how many miles you could
travel in day, if you were riding a horse.

Thank you.

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Answer
Hi, Jennifer
If the horse was holding a rider and baggage and was in good condition, I would not ride any more than 10 miles in one day at a slow pace. Horses can drink more than 20 gallons a day... so keep you and your horse supplied with enough water to last the whole ride!
Hope I could help you! Holly>



Granted this person isnt on par with a confederate horseman, but the ideas the same, you can only push a horse so far, you have to tend to your own needs and the horses....not to mention like I said the terrain problems are the greater factor. If you look and see the moutains and rivers you have to cross in that journey, this fact will be secondary.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

Hmmm. 20 gallons of water a day... At my old age, I wouldn't want to guess which one of us would have to stop more often to use the facilities, me or the horse?

ROFL...but it probably explains why Morgan hugged the rivers so in his exploits, not to mention he knew the terrain, the 700 mi path you cited is much more do-able from terrain logitics. Then an upstate NY trip from Va

[arsan]

Ten miles a day??
So... in the ACW infantry had to slow his pace and wait for the cavalry??
Even a pathetic sports man like me can walk more than 10 miles a day

I suspect, your Jeniffer and Holly are not on the same riding league of Jeb, Forrest, Bufford and the rest...
Regards!

[pepe4158]

Lol...realisticly Arsan you could expect a conf cav man to do more, but remember when your walking, you carry just you, the horse carries you both is the problem, and at a fast pace, like you might have to do, he can get spent quick.
Remember a horse cant say...man I am tired I am gona drop and die cuz you rode me too hard...they just drop and die trying to fullfill your requests.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Rafiki]

I think that number must be for a very slow, very comfortable and purely recreational pace.

Skimming the article about the battle of Little Big Horn over at Wikipedia, it seems to me that cavalry in the 19th century could sustain much larger speeds.

On the day of the battle, following a forced night march, one of Custer's battalions was able to cross approx 15 miles in a few hours to attack the village. Granted, a battle is different than a campaign and the article reports that the timelines are somewhat debated, but I still think it serves as an illustration of the scale we are talking about here

[arsan]

Lol...realisticly Arsan you could expect a conf cav man to do more, but remember when your walking, you carry just you, the horse carries you both is the problem, and at a fast pace, like you might have to do, he can get spent quick.
Remember a horse cant say...man I am tired I am gona drop and die cuz you rode me too hard...they just drop and die trying to fullfill your requests.

I must confess i have not even touched a real horse on my life (European urban guy, here ) so...
Talking about loong rides... how about Grierson raid?? I will have to check Footes books about speeds and distances when i arrive home but he went from Corinth to Baton Rouge
At least he did not need to go back home to Corinth...
Regards!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

I think that number must be for a very slow, very comfortable and purely recreational pace.

Skimming the article about the battle of Little Big Horn over at Wikipedia, it seems to me that cavalry in the 19th century could sustain much larger speeds.

On the day of the battle, following a forced night march, one of Custer's battalions was able to cross approx 15 miles in a few hours to attack the village. Granted, a battle is different than a campaign and the article reports that the timelines are somewhat debated, but I still think it serves as an illustration of the scale we are talking about here

Speed isnt the issue Raf...its stamina...n yes fiqure about double; a max of 20or so miles a day without killing horses for a confederate horseman
The worst issue is terrain....Ive been to the little big Horn on the Montana-Wyoming border...its nice country for a horse ride, why the plains indians liked it even though it gets cold as He$$
Hence here in the USA we call it the Plains Wars....flat level terrain, generally speaking in comparison to the eastern USA

Cool pics too Gary.....I have wanted to stop there off of I-40 and see it, least I didstop at the Gettysburg battlefield.

[pepe4158]

I must confess i have not even touched a real horse on my life (European urban guy, here ) so...
Talking about loong rides... how about Grierson raid?? I will have to check Footes books about speeds and distances when i arrive home but he went from Corinth to Baton Rouge
At least he did not need to go back home to Corinth...
Regards!

He might have been able to rotate horses Ars...he was in friendly territory wasnt he versus hostile territory?

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

k didnt know Gary, just a thought, cuz obviously you can do more then as I think (if you can rotate horses) you pointed out earlier.



Hmmm 400 mi when i googled the number....yeah I will have to read up on his raids, but i would contend somewhere he had to do some horse swapping as thats really pushing it.

As far as terrain not bad terrain (thats relatively flat terrain, with no large moutains, and no large rivers to cross)....worst is possible swamp issues.

Say Gary curious about this too....reading a narative, n seems he commodered a train for some of the raid, know anything about that?

Hmmm saw this from his memoirs...n i would defintly contend his raid is an aberation:


Great credit is due the commanders of this expedi-
tion for their efforts to prevent the destruction of private
property, and the men for abstaining from destruction,
which they could have done quite easily. It now
required more energy and perseverance on the part of
the scouts ; the rumors ahead were contradictory, and
the designs upon us, hard to tell ; the roads must be
found, so that there should be no delay to the column,

3

50 GRIERSON RAIDS.

at the same time, through our assumed character, find
all the horses we could, and get them, or give informa-
tion to the command where they could be found. The
roads being good, we made good time, passing through
Garlandville, where we found the citizens organized,
armed and ready to receive us ; they fired on the advance,
wounding one man and killing one horse ; we charged
them, capturing nearly the entire party.

(Hmmm he goes on to say they were only old people n he stole all their horses typical yank...just joking!)

Found this also to support my position:

http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20021109110039.php

Your horse - the 15.2 Thoroughbred - is very much what the cavalry bred, selected, and used, because cavalry mounts had to have quality, heart, endurance, and the ability to go 20 miles a day, day after day, carrying soldiers and their equipment (totalling up to 300 pounds). Most of the horses were 15.1 and 15.2. Most of the soldiers were well over 5'1", and most weighed a great deal more than you do - even WITHOUT their equipment. Taller horses weren't wanted, because weight-carrying ability and soundness were essential - sometimes a matter of life and death - and those qualities were more reliably found amongst the horses of average (not "short") height.

[Rafiki]

Speed isnt the issue Raf...its stamina...

Indeed, which is what I was referring to when I said that a battle is different than a campaign.

n yes fiqure about double; a max of 20or so miles a day without killing horses for a confederate horseman

An man on foot can fairly easily walk that distance in a day, over time, and with his full equipment. For a cavalry officer, I have little experience with actual horses, but I'd be very surprised if they aren't able to travel further than a man on foot.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

yeah the narrative I was reading is here, I would defintly contend his was an aberation tho and extremly well planned.

http://www.archive.org/stream/griersonraidshat00surb/griersonraidshat00surb_djvu.txt

oppps broke link
trying again

http://www.archive.org/stream/griersonraidshat00surb/griersonraidshat00surb_djvu.txt

Ekkk wont work k my proofs broken I give up....yeah 500-600 miles a week no problem....Jeb stuart just didnt want to actually go to NY and rob the northeners cuz he was just too much a gentleman (yeah I believe that) Thats why it never actually happened, but like you guys say he could have easily done it (in a pigs eye!)

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

Hmmm wouldnt hurt to take a look, but I still think logisticaly some of the things you can pull of in the game as the south are unrealistic....but as the north they actually did accomplish more then is easily achieved by the game, but for play balance I understand some concessions must be made...n NO game is 100% historicaly accurate....all in all Pocus did a great job trying to balance the two.
I just cringe each time I see or play the south and do that Cav trick knowing its utterly impossible. Which was this thread was all about and what pushed my button.

He-hee n dont get me going on that ignorant peace movement in the USA by Bush hatters...each time I go by those towers I feel like forcing some ignorant demonstrators to live there in the ruins...but I understand thats too far off topic lol

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

I hate to give the devil his due, but he was also a man of impeccable charecter, the honest Abe reputation was well deserved.

In the thread that was closed many of our...hmm how do I put this, friends here from non-america countries (hint hint Eu...) wanted to say Lincoln was motivated to do what he did by greed and $.

Sure $ had a factor, always does, but Lincoln lived in an era when your word actually meant something, just too hard for people to understand nowdays.

When he quoted the bible n said, 'a House divided cannot stand' he actually believed in his heart, he was doing the right thing and following God's principles....that he would be blessed somehow for doing the right thing, it wasnt about $ to him as much as principles.

An old joke I heard about his charecter when a man came to bribe him, Lincoln listened and polietly refused, so the man kept uping his $ number and Lincoln kept polietly refusing, Finally Lincoln breaks out in anger and tells the man to leave immediatly, Seward who had overheard all ask, why wait so long to throw him out when before you were just polite?.

Lincoln responds, 'He was getting close to my yes #' ....point being no politician of today would have Lincoln type integrity

[W.Barksdale]

I never realized how shrewd Lincoln was as a political manipulator until I read these books. I read them thru once, late last year and I am re-reading them again.

Gray if your interested in a little more of Lincoln's political shrewdness I urge you to check out Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin. You really get to know Lincoln by also looking at his peers, Seward, Chase, Blair and Stanton, among others.

[Skibear]

As mentioned above, yes, 10 miles a day is pretty ridiculous. Thats a heath and safety pony ride centre over a couple of hours. The Union would catch up them walking! I can just imagine the scene. Morgan and his boys trotting through Ohio at 10 miles per day.... and some fat Union militia unit overtakes them and demands that they pull over. I remember my infantry combat selection test was 12 miles in 3 hours with rifle and full pack. Hard work but on a horse with the same gear you'd be there in 2 hours easily.
Morgans full ride was about 1000 miles which lasted for 46 days before he surrendered. They think he maybe stole 2500 horses on route so multiple counts of Grand Theft Pony helps explain how he maintained the logistics of it. But a sustained rate of 21 miles per day, including time out to burn and cause mischief. Quite a road trip. Over a week I am pretty certain that many more miles is achievable by good horsemen in rough terrain than you give them credit for.

[soloswolf]

Cavalry alone averaged 6/mph during the ACW.

Obviously higher speeds were possible, but the point is they rarely out-paced their infantry when moving as part of a column.

[pepe4158]

Well Solo the expert I found on the link said 20 mph was an average # (if you needed to push) 6 would probably be a non-raider (feeling relativy safe) not wanting to kill a horse....it all depends on terrain conditions I was asserting though, what you do in one area of the USA would be hard to duplicate in other.

My point to Griesons raids is that the raid was a well planned out aberation, (probably the miltary model for years to come) in extremly favorable terrain, n the southerners all kept good horses to steal in the area (horse racing is big in this part of the country), NOT big lumbering NE plow horses like you see in your area Solo.

[arsan]

Solowolf talks about miles per HOUR, not per DAY

[soloswolf]

I didn't know I was disagreeing with you.

In fact, I think your point on 20 miles or so, and mine about cavalry staying with their infantry were right on the same page.

Also, while we do "keep 'em shod and straight", we have managed to harness mechanical power in a few towns... Imagine!

My sense of things is that you make your blanket statements about New England and Europe,etc. without any ill meaning, but moving forward I would appreciate not having general statements thrown around.

To the point: Particularly later in the war, many mounted federal forces frequently operated as detached forces of mounted infantry. Their mobility and increased firepower compared to the standard soldier helped level the field against larger forces. But the bulk of their duties were still as pickets, flankers, forward observers, foragers and outpost details.

And like I said above, everyone operated better with movements of combined forces. So the marching rates, in optimal conditions were in concert with all arms, but typically were restricted to the slowest among them.

[pepe4158]

Thks Arsan yes my mistake...I just woke up

N really Solo ...your offended that I said northeners loved their big slow plow horses at this age of time?...aka Clydesdales in the north?...hmmm I quess hard to be a dashing knight on a plow horse is what urks you lol?

[tagwyn]

"Grand Theft?" Tell that to Uncle Billy's boys if you want a good laugh!!! apy:

[soloswolf]

Pepe, it really would be better for everyone if you just stayed on topic.

[Coregonas]

Panzers on WW2 went from poland to moscow in 4 months.

So:

Aprox 1000 miles

4 months x 30 days x 8 hours a day = aprox 1000 hours


Panzers advanced ON THE AVERAGE 1 mph !!!!

Yes some russian in the middle...