Conscripts?

[willgamer]

I can't seem to match up what some older posts say about conscripts with playing with the latest version 1.07h. Specifically I can't find anything labeled conscripts by late '61 to train.

Also, I take it from these posts that conscripts and milita are never the same thing (even though, as near as I can tell, milita are comprised of 100% conscripts).

In short, exactly what does every new player need to know about conscripts?

[jam3]

One of the few areas of really poor design in the game is the

militia -> Line infantry(conscript) -> line Infantry -> Experience Points

Thats the progression. Militia every turn have a ~5% chance to turn into Line Infantry and when the do so there marked as conscripts. Now it might have been adjusted in the last patch but the only way to tell this was to look at the title above the element list and you would see (conscript) next to the infantry name. Now add that to the fact that you have "conscription points" and you have the nomenclature all messed up, searching for "conscript" on this forum will give you alot of results. If you buy Line infantry they skip conscript.

The system becomes usefull for people realising the conscription point advantage in buying militia over line infantry, basically buying lot's of militia can be an investment in a future army. It gets bogged down with having to check all those seperate units and also having to relpace militia in towns where militia gets upgraded. Plus (conscript) Line Infantry seems to upgrade on its own and rather fast kinda making the trait for generals to train conscripts useless.

The expierience points also acrue horrendously slow a level 4 xp element is a rare thing and there are 9? or is it 10 ranks.

The whole process should have been forming up regiments and needing to drill them and lvl 1 - 2 ,with a traited general (or make a support unit "drill camp"), should have been conscript to regular and then only have enough levels, say 5 or so. To reflect battlefield experience and name each level (veteran, elite, etc).

[Jagger]

Actually it is a little more complicated.

Militia progresses to volunteers, then conscripts, then early war and finally late war infantry.

Cavalry progresses from conscript to early war and then late war cavalry.

The percentage chance to advance varies for each level and for different time frames of the game. IIRC, the original game also has some variation by CSA/Union nationality.

I think it is a good system. It is fully open to modification if a person has another concept of the progression rate vs the original.

[willgamer]

One of the few areas of really poor design in the game is the

militia -> Line infantry(conscript) -> line Infantry -> Experience Points

Thats the progression. Militia every turn have a ~5% chance to turn into Line Infantry and when the do so there marked as conscripts. Now it might have been adjusted in the last patch but the only way to tell this was to look at the title above the element list and you would see (conscript) next to the infantry name. Now add that to the fact that you have "conscription points" and you have the nomenclature all messed up, searching for "conscript" on this forum will give you alot of results. If you buy Line infantry they skip conscript.

The system becomes usefull for people realising the conscription point advantage in buying militia over line infantry, basically buying lot's of militia can be an investment in a future army. It gets bogged down with having to check all those seperate units and also having to relpace militia in towns where militia gets upgraded. Plus (conscript) Line Infantry seems to upgrade on its own and rather fast kinda making the trait for generals to train conscripts useless.

The expierience points also acrue horrendously slow a level 4 xp element is a rare thing and there are 9? or is it 10 ranks.

The whole process should have been forming up regiments and needing to drill them and lvl 1 - 2 ,with a traited general (or make a support unit "drill camp"), should have been conscript to regular and then only have enough levels, say 5 or so. To reflect battlefield experience and name each level (veteran, elite, etc).

Thanks for the info.

Per usual it generates more

1. I've looked in the element lists of milita, infantry and cavalry for the conscript designation, but I've not seen it. Do conscripts only appear after a certain date?

2. Does the conscript progression apply to all unit types: milita, infanty, cavalry, etc...

3. Is there a user modifible parameter for the rate of gain for experience?

[Paul Roberts]

The "conscript" designation has disappeared with the current patch. Conscripts are still in the game, but the label "(conscript)" that used to appear next to their name in the element list is now gone.

I assume this is a bug that will be corrected.

[Jagger]

The expierience points also acrue horrendously slow a level 4 xp element is a rare thing and there are 9? or is it 10 ranks.

The whole process should have been forming up regiments and needing to drill them and lvl 1 - 2 ,with a traited general (or make a support unit "drill camp"), should have been conscript to regular and then only have enough levels, say 5 or so. To reflect battlefield experience and name each level (veteran, elite, etc).

The prograte controls experience gain. Currently, most infantry has a prograte of 10. I am happier with a prograte of 5. I felt 4 produced experience gains too quickly. Still testing 5 and may end up with 6. Time will tell.

I agree that units should first appear as conscripts. As it is, early/late war troop pools appear as early/late troops rather than conscripts. But troops can be modded to appear as conscripts first. Then with time, conscripts advance to higher levels of expertise.

If troops appear as conscripts first, then the combination of more skilled models such as early/late war and battle experience can be tweaked to produce a two tiered approach to the improvement of troops with time.

A very good system is in the game but I think modding and tweaking produces a more realistic end result in my opinion.

[willgamer]

The prograte controls experience gain. Currently, most infantry has a prograte of 10. I am happier with a prograte of 5. I felt 4 produced experience gains too quickly. Still testing 5 and may end up with 6. Time will tell.

I agree that units should first appear as conscripts. As it is, early/late war troop pools appear as early/late troops rather than conscripts. But troops can be modded to appear as conscripts first. Then with time, conscripts advance to higher levels of expertise.

If troops appear as conscripts first, then the combination of more skilled models such as early/late war and battle experience can be tweaked to produce a two tiered approach to the improvement of troops with time.

A very good system is in the game but I think modding and tweaking produces a more realistic end result in my opinion.

To sum up:

As of 1.07h, the conscript system is good, but uses confusing terminology, is mostly undocumented, and does not fully work as advertised. Presently, there is little for the player to manage. Modding and wiki may fix many of these issues, except for the label/training issue.

[jam3]

Actually it is a little more complicated.

Militia progresses to volunteers, then conscripts, then early war and finally late war infantry.

Cavalry progresses from conscript to early war and then late war cavalry.

The percentage chance to advance varies for each level and for different time frames of the game. IIRC, the original game also has some variation by CSA/Union nationality.

I think it is a good system. It is fully open to modification if a person has another concept of the progression rate vs the original.

Seriously this is a great game but this facet of it just seems almost broken to me.

1) It changes all the time with patches
2) The nomenclature is messed up specifically the double usage of conscript and conscription points
3) No way to accuratly determine the xp level of an element, and if one is there it changes from patch to patch.
4) The training traits of generals becomes very difficult to understand and use, and it should be easy.
5) Causes the most amount of micromangement in the game, and does so uneccesarily, there are plenty of ways around the problem.

I don't understand at all what your referencing about volunteers, volunteers to me are a 3 element brigade with 1 militia, and 1 light infantry, 1 line infantry, and the militia unit can get upgraded to line infantry (not sure whether that element is (conscript) within the brigade when it gets upgraded). If volunteer is another unseen level for an element on is xp path then there is a 2nd double usage of a term because of the volunteer brigades.

This system should be reworked to be completly transparent to a player , involve less micromangement and allow the player to fully utilize relevant general traits.

1. I've looked in the element lists of milita, infantry and cavalry for the conscript designation, but I've not seen it. Do conscripts only appear after a certain date?

From what i know it starts at the beginning. Insofar as looking for the conscript designation that can be frustrating and is mostly dependant on the most recent patch as it changes all the time. I am not sure as the last I played was 1.07e i think.

2. Does the conscript progression apply to all unit types: milita, infanty, cavalry, etc...

Just Infantry and namely just militia that got upgraded, remember its just a check for each militia element every turn.

3. Is there a user modifible parameter for the rate of gain for experience?

There most likely is check the mod forums and the wiki.

[Jagger]

Seriously this is a great game but this facet of it just seems almost broken to me.

I disagree. The process works exactly as designed. It is not broken at all.

Although I am not completely satisfied with the results produced by the process. However that is my personal opinion. Others seem perfectly happy with the results.

Fortunately, the game is moddable. I modded to produce results much closer to my concept of unit type/experience progression. I am now very happy with the results.

It is definitely not broken.

1) It changes all the time with patches
2) The nomenclature is messed up specifically the double usage of conscript and conscription points
3) No way to accuratly determine the xp level of an element, and if one is there it changes from patch to patch.
4) The training traits of generals becomes very difficult to understand and use, and it should be easy.
5) Causes the most amount of micromangement in the game, and does so uneccesarily, there are plenty of ways around the problem.

1. I am aware of only one change of nomenclature. Not sure of why it was done but the conscript name was removed. I assume because a unit does not remain a conscript forever. It progresses up the chain of units.

2. Nomenclature is fine. Conscript is used as a unit type which makes sense. And conscripts exist as a more general concept of raising numbers of troops in a different part of the game. Which is the same as in real life.

3. I agree it would nice to have an identification of the unit level when you select a unit. You can tell by looking at the combat or cohesion stats. There is significant differences between the various unit types. Battle experience is easy because they are reflected by battle stars.

4) I agree it could be clearer the advantages and method of use of training officers.

5) There is no micromanagement involved in the unit progression itself. Completely hands off unless you want to use a training officer to improve units.

[Jagger]

I don't understand at all what your referencing about volunteers, volunteers to me are a 3 element brigade with 1 militia, and 1 light infantry, 1 line infantry, and the militia unit can get upgraded to line infantry (not sure whether that element is (conscript) within the brigade when it gets upgraded). If volunteer is another unseen level for an element on is xp path then there is a 2nd double usage of a term because of the volunteer brigades.

This system should be reworked to be completly transparent to a player , involve less micromangement and allow the player to fully utilize relevant general traits.

1. I've looked in the element lists of milita, infantry and cavalry for the conscript designation, but I've not seen it. Do conscripts only appear after a certain date?

From what i know it starts at the beginning. Insofar as looking for the conscript designation that can be frustrating and is mostly dependant on the most recent patch as it changes all the time. I am not sure as the last I played was 1.07e i think.

2. Does the conscript progression apply to all unit types: milita, infanty, cavalry, etc...

Just Infantry and namely just militia that got upgraded, remember its just a check for each militia element every turn.

3. Is there a user modifible parameter for the rate of gain for experience?

There most likely is check the mod forums and the wiki.

Volunteer is a term that applies to both brigades and elements. Both sides raised many volunteer brigades early in the war and were called volunteers both in the war and in the game.

But regiments, just as brigades, could also be volunteers. Those regiments are the elements that make up brigades. The double use of the term is the same double use as in real life. Perhaps a made up term might work better but I suspect people would find it even more confusing than the real life useage.

Regiments are going to be either militia, volunteers, conscripts, early war and late war infantry amonst the mass of regular infantry. Once created and with time, regiments will change as they gain experience. A regiment created as a volunteer regiment initially will eventually become a conscript then early war and finally a late war regiment.

You will not see conscripts often in the game. Units primarily appear first in the game as militia, volunteers, early war and late war. But you will see militia and volunteers eventually progress to conscript level. But they aren't there for long. IIRC, there is a 15% chance of progress to early war from conscript level in the unmodded game.

The progression system applies to regular infantry and cavalry. It doesn't apply to artillery, elite, regulars and other unique unit types.

The game has good depth and logic in its modeling of different ability levels and the progression in abilities with time.

The prograte of model files determines the rate of experience gain. The modding forum is probably best to learn how to mod the rate.

[jam3]

Let me be as clear as possible the nomenclature issue is that there are two seperate game objects WITH THE SAME NAME. "Conscription points" and "Conscript" as a "title of element experience level". This is a violation of the most simplistic of all data rules. Especially since there is absolutly no reason to do so, one good reason would be if there were truly no other word in language possible to use. You could use "Recruit", "Green", "Strawfoot", etc, etc to denote an elements experience level.


The same is true for "Volunteer", if as you say it is a "title of element experience level". i.e

militia -> Line Infantry(conscript) -> Line Infantry (Volunteer) -> Line Infantry (Experience level 1) -> 2,3,....

And also have "Volunteer" Brigades. You have me even more confused from before with the Line Infantry (Volunteer) "title of element experience level".
Does this mean "Volunteer" Brigades are all at (Volunteer) "title of element experience level". Does the "Conscript" and "Volunteer" "title of element experience level" correlate in any way to the experience "star" rating of an element?

As far as the historic usage of the term "Volunteer" in a brigade or regiment name simply put it there and not in the experience path for an element. So a Element title might read 22nd Mass. Volunteers.

Insofar as Micromangement is concerned I am talking specifically about how militia units which are used as town defense upgrade and you have to cycle through them all and order up replacements and move them out in to a city with a traited general to upgrade them from (conscript) status. AND then replace them with new militia.




Heres my fix

Militia is militia it always stays militia unless you deliberatly move them to a training officer or introduce a support unit called "Training Camp". This is COMPLETLY historical. Militia units formed in states were kept away from the fighting by govenors. These were typically professional workers who were needed economically to stay alive and could operate locally if the need called for it. They had very limited training and a militia unit that was raised specifically by the govenor as a militia unit was intended to stay a militia unit. I can point you to several historical references. This also eliminates the micromangement I was refering to.

The use of "Volunteer" and "Conscript" has alot less to do with a "Title of unit's experience" and a heckuva lot more to do with HOW a unit came into existence. If you wanted to incorporate these into the game then you should change "conscription points" into "manpower" and through events get free manpower from "volunteers" and regular manpower from "conscription" and the call for volunteer/drafts which already work just fine. Let me point out here the absolutle undeniable problem with the nomenclature. The fact that a "Call for volunteers" produces conscription points is 100% an oxymoron.

Now all you have to do is make the "star" experience system the definitive place to look to see what "level" a unit is. No stars means its "green", "untrained", "strawfoot" (southerners in training camps rarely were educated, most didn't know left from right so they put straw on one foot and hay on another and would teach them to march by saying "strawfoot" "hayfoot" in cadence). To get from 0-1 a unit needs to be trained at either a training camp (new support unit) or a properly traited general. They can gain it in combat but using green troops in combat should be a horrendous penalty.





I am truly not trying to be antagonistic, the game is otherwise brilliant. I almost wonder if its because english is a second language to french speaking developers. The use of an implied meaning of both "Volunteer" and "Conscript" (that because they are means to bring soldiers into an army it means there untrained) as a primary marker for unit experience makes NO sense at all when other terms primary meaning is one that denotes experience.

I have a masters in Comp Sci and have been working with data in the IT industry as a programmer and database admin/architect for 17 years. I am also a civil war history buff. Not that my accolades prove anything,just that the system and semantics used in this game is bewildering to me, and if its bewildering to me theres a good chance others are confused as well.

This is something EASY, it should be completly transparent to the player, a 10year old should be able to look at it and say ok this element is at lvl 0 i need to train it and it is nowhere close it's a confused mess.

[jam3]

edit: deleted double post.

[Jagger]

Let me be as clear as possible the nomenclature issue is that there are two seperate game objects WITH THE SAME NAME. "Conscription points" and "Conscript" as a "title of element experience level". This is a violation of the most simplistic of all data rules. Especially since there is absolutly no reason to do so, one good reason would be if there were truly no other word in language possible to use. You could use "Recruit", "Green", "Strawfoot", etc, etc to denote an elements experience level.


The same is true for "Volunteer", if as you say it is a "title of element experience level". i.e

militia -> Line Infantry(conscript) -> Line Infantry (Volunteer) -> Line Infantry (Experience level 1) -> 2,3,....

And also have "Volunteer" Brigades. You have me even more confused from before with the Line Infantry (Volunteer) "title of element experience level".
Does this mean "Volunteer" Brigades are all at (Volunteer) "title of element experience level". Does the "Conscript" and "Volunteer" "title of element experience level" correlate in any way to the experience "star" rating of an element?

As far as the historic usage of the term "Volunteer" in a brigade or regiment name simply put it there and not in the experience path for an element. So a Element title might read 22nd Mass. Volunteers.

Insofar as Micromangement is concerned I am talking specifically about how militia units which are used as town defense upgrade and you have to cycle through them all and order up replacements and move them out in to a city with a traited general to upgrade them from (conscript) status. AND then replace them with new militia.

Heres my fix

Militia is militia it always stays militia unless you deliberatly move them to a training officer or introduce a support unit called "Training Camp". This is COMPLETLY historical. Militia units formed in states were kept away from the fighting by govenors. These were typically professional workers who were needed economically to stay alive and could operate locally if the need called for it. They had very limited training and a militia unit that was raised specifically by the govenor as a militia unit was intended to stay a militia unit. I can point you to several historical references. This also eliminates the micromangement I was refering to.

The use of "Volunteer" and "Conscript" has alot less to do with a "Title of unit's experience" and a heckuva lot more to do with HOW a unit came into existence. If you wanted to incorporate these into the game then you should change "conscription points" into "manpower" and through events get free manpower from "volunteers" and regular manpower from "conscription" and the call for volunteer/drafts which already work just fine. Let me point out here the absolutle undeniable problem with the nomenclature. The fact that a "Call for volunteers" produces conscription points is 100% an oxymoron.

Now all you have to do is make the "star" experience system the definitive place to look to see what "level" a unit is. No stars means its "green", "untrained", "strawfoot" (southerners in training camps rarely were educated, most didn't know left from right so they put straw on one foot and hay on another and would teach them to march by saying "strawfoot" "hayfoot" in cadence). To get from 0-1 a unit needs to be trained at either a training camp (new support unit) or a properly traited general. They can gain it in combat but using green troops in combat should be a horrendous penalty.

I am truly not trying to be antagonistic, the game is otherwise brilliant. I almost wonder if its because english is a second language to french speaking developers. The use of an implied meaning of both "Volunteer" and "Conscript" (that because they are means to bring soldiers into an army it means there untrained) as a primary marker for unit experience makes NO sense at all when other terms primary meaning is one that denotes experience.

I have a masters in Comp Sci and have been working with data in the IT industry as a programmer and database admin/architect for 17 years. I am also a civil war history buff. Not that my accolades prove anything,just that the system and semantics used in this game is bewildering to me, and if its bewildering to me theres a good chance others are confused as well.

This is something EASY, it should be completly transparent to the player, a 10year old should be able to look at it and say ok this element is at lvl 0 i need to train it and it is nowhere close it's a confused mess.

We can always use another modder. If you can put your words into action, all will be happy.

Although I have already done the work which will be released in another week or two as the PBEM mod.

[jam3]

If you can point me towards the files and arguments in the code where I can change this so I don't have to do that research this I can do just that. I don't have alot of time and cutting the research portion out would help, if it's possible to implement what I stated above I would be glad to so. The research information doesn't have to be absolutly specific.

Also is there a way to get rid of the 5% check on the militia through modding? I would guess thats embedded in the exe itself.

[Guru80]

Sounds great jam3, but honestly I guess I don't understand the confusion or misunderstanding since I am not experiencing it. If you are up for doing the work (head to the moding forum and get some info) I would be interested in checking it out. I have my hands more than full with everything I am working on for this game and need to get out still but the Holiday set me way back and life in general.

[Eugene Carr]

I can see both points, I havent found the present system so bewildering that the game has'nt been a joy to play BUT I do agree that a more logical naming system would be preferable perhaps along lines of

recruit>trained>experienced>veteran

S!

[Coffee Sergeant]

I have noticed that some infantry units have a thick black line on the far left of their symbol - does this denote as "conscript". Because I mainly see it with militia units that have trained up.

[Paul Roberts]

I have noticed that some infantry units have a thick black line on the far left of their symbol - does this denote as "conscript". Because I mainly see it with militia units that have trained up.

The thick line on the left of the NATO symbol denotes "heavy infantry." I may be mistaken, but I believe most union line troops have this designation, while most CSA infantry does not.

[Coffee Sergeant]

The thick line on the left of the NATO symbol denotes "heavy infantry." I may be mistaken, but I believe most union line troops have this designation, while most CSA infantry does not.

I am aware of the "Heavy infantry" movement type but I don't know about a "heavy infantry" unit type - do you mean "line infantry". I checked this and there doesn't appear to be any difference for units that have that black bar and units that don't.

As for the "conscripts" at present, i can find nothing that denotes a a unit as "conscript". For the militia upgrading, here are the labels for the infantry units I notice.

State militia(militia) -> Volunteers(militia) -> Infantry(Line infantry)

Their cohesion ratings are respectively 66 -> 77 -> 88

Interestingly enough, I have seen units change their type name, but the NATO symbol doesn't. It should lose the state designation when they become Volunteers, and lose the M when they become line infantry.

I have seen some line infantry with higher cohesion (93), and you also have elite infantry which generally has cohesion > 10:fleb:

[Jagger]

If you can point me towards the files and arguments in the code where I can change this so I don't have to do that research this I can do just that. I don't have alot of time and cutting the research portion out would help, if it's possible to implement what I stated above I would be glad to so. The research information doesn't have to be absolutly specific.

Also is there a way to get rid of the 5% check on the militia through modding? I would guess thats embedded in the exe itself.

Unfortunately, we are all short on time it seems. There is a modding manual in the modding section. Many good threads for picking up the concepts are available in the modding forum. New threads with questions get answers from the audience.

Modding units is fairly easy using the spreadsheets and CSV splitter. Although some of your ideas can't be accomplished without graphical and game engine changes but others can be implemented.

The 5% check on militia can be removed from the appropriate event file. IIRC, it is contained in the "various event" file.

[McNaughton]

Militia are representing the local forces raised in times of emergency. Poorly equippend and usually poorly trained, they are ment only to slow down a light attacking force.

Volunteers are probably better called "State Troops". These forces are generally equivalents to what has been called "Regulars", but are still under state administration and serve primarily for state defence (although many were federalized).

Regulars are probably better called "Volunteers". These forces were state forces that have been Federalized, therefore able to serve effectively outside of the state (since they all sighned on for this mission).

True regulars are represented by the pre-war army, as well as wartime raised regular army troops. These are professional soldiers, and much more strictly trained.

Conscripts are represented by troops who did not volunteer for federalized state service, and/or may have had rushed training and equipment. Their performance is lower because the nature of their creation was different (most served against their will, and were quickly brought into combat). This is why they are 'different', and what is representative of the process of 'federalizing' state troops (for both USA and CSA service).

Take the Missouri State Guard. It fought as a State Troop force in 1861, defeated and moved to Arkansas it slowly converted into CSA service, but this process was long and the battle of Pea Ridge happened in the midst of the 'conversion' into Federal service (with troops caught out of state, not necessarily willingly, not unwillingly, pressed into CSA service).

So, the SYSTEM works fine, but the terminology probably can do with upgrading (Militia -> State Militia, Volunteers -> State Troops, Regulars -> Volunteers).