Bavaria gangbanged, supplies and lassitude.

[veji1]

Hello all, in the last game as France I started under the latest patch, I am now in april 1806 and an immense lassitude has befallen me regarding some recurring problems in this game :
- I beat up Austria and got Pressburg in december. In planning for this peace I had built depots over many austrian provinces I had advanced into (in southern Germany as in Italy)to try and keep my supply flow going + I had spread out my corps so that when peace fired I didn't have too many corps in one place : only one in Wien, one in Linz, one in Salzburg, one in Passau, etc. Thanks to this careful planning the Pressburg peace didn't turn into the Russian retreat; one point for me (well at some point in late winter the Cavalry reserve in Regensburg started losing men, I had to move it to Munchen.... but not catastrophic at least). I had turned Bavaria into a full member of my alliance in september/october 1806.
- Alas Prussia decided to attack Bavaria as early as mid january 1806. So i dowed Prussia (silly that I have to do it, it should be automatic). I keep my troops mostly in place till spring, having a few battles around Stuttgart with a Prussian corps, but waiting for better weather to attack the Prussians. In march weather gets better and I start converging some troops on Bayreuth and sending Augereau to Hannover for the northern route.
- In prevision of an offensive in Prussia proper, I notice i am not at war with Saxony, since I need to go through it and I want to just build the shit out of it in terms of depots all the way, I dow it...
- Then rejoice fellow players ! in mid march as I still have a corps in Wien, in Linz and in Salzburg, Austria declares war on Bavaria !!! (emoji where I shoot myself). It gives me a casus belli and I dow wih annoyance.
- The 3 corps in those 3 cities (Davout in Wien, Lannes in Salzburg and Bernadotte in Linz) take those cities straight away and beat up the austrians around. To my dismay 2 turns after that I get a message that Davout's corps is taking supply hits... I have control of austrian territory from Bavaria to Wien so supply should flow through, but no, it looks like I can only count on measly austrian supply and Wien (the capital !) can't supply a 30 000 men corps...

So here I am, 30ish turns into the game, with the nonsensical bavarian gangbang forcing me to dow around Prussia, Austrian and Saxony just to avoid my ally being dismembered + Still the same exasperating supply issues where my southern german allies are a vast desert preventing my supplies from flowing no matter how many depots they have (which I built for them when the territories were Austrian) and my troops start starvin in the poorest place on earth, Wien....

Guys I am fed up. Just treat members of the alliance like part of my country :
1/ If you are the AI, you dow them, you dow me, and you don't want to dow me, so you don't.
2/ Make them part of the french supply system, let them keep their WS an money and conscript to build troops, but put their general supply and Ammo in the french pool and the french grid.
3/ allow a country to build a structure (Depot, redoubt, fort,...) in an allied country. The moment the structure is built it belongs to the country on which land it was built, which isn't a problem since they share the same supply grid and can use the same forts.

This needs fixin, the game is beyond frustrating at this point.

Thanks.

[vicberg]

Yes, some of the RGD cards need some adjustment so you can build in friendly or controlled territories.

The AI needs to go into passive mode for Minors, IMO. It's simply not smart enough to act on it's own and it doesn't recognize alliances in it's process of doing a DOW. The AI doesn't build replacements unless a scripted event GIVES them replacements. Minors should just be present unless they are part of an alliance, in which case they DOW because a major in the alliance does a DOW. I haven't focused on AI much in my mod and I'm not sure if this is possible. This is why in my mod, I'm removing AI controlled minors as much as possible and giving full control to the major. Final step will be to figure out how the AI works and make the neutral minors completely passive.

[veji1]

Yes, some of the RGD cards need some adjustment so you can build in friendly or controlled territories.

The AI needs to go into passive mode for Minors, IMO. It's simply not smart enough to act on it's own and it doesn't recognize alliances in it's process of doing a DOW. The AI doesn't build replacements unless a scripted event GIVES them replacements. Minors should just be present unless they are part of an alliance, in which case they DOW because a major in the alliance does a DOW. I haven't focused on AI much in my mod and I'm not sure if this is possible. This is why in my mod, I'm removing AI controlled minors as much as possible and giving full control to the major. Final step will be to figure out how the AI works and make the neutral minors completely passive.

What would be interesting would be to give control of minors to major powers in whose alliance they are, but with a mechanism similar to what existed for militias in AACW : they had a penalty when fighting outside of their state. You could penalised minor troops, ideally in 2 tiers :
- loss of a bit of cohesion when fighting outside of its borders BUT still withing the main theatre (I haven't checked the game on that, but theatres would be for example southern Germany including austria all the way to Pressburg, Northern Italy all the way to Laibach, Iberia would be Spain and Portugal, etc... So that minor troops would still be efficient in their overall theater.
- a further loss of cohesion making them not so useful anymore outside of their theater.

The idea would be that as the french using Wurtembergians and Bavarians fighting Austria in southern Germany should still yield you solid results, whereas using them in Spain or deep in Russia would just make them poor troops. It would help avoid gamey stuff and emulate history pretty well : the reason why the french grande armée in 1812 melted supremaly quickly when invading Russia was partly because most of the foreign contingent just vaporised (loss of cohesion, lack of motivation) in the first months of the summer campaigning in white Russia : Only 40% of the army was really french, even some nominal french were in facth dutch, piemontese, etc... most of the other contingents just melted away like butter.

Really I find all this mess very frustrating, the AI seems to get completely lost in its diplomatic meandering with all those minors it dows on god knows which criteria...

[vicberg]

France had 200,000 multi-national troops going into Russia (less than the 60% you mention, but numbers do vary by historian). You can't check for adjacent territories or something of the like and then further away. It would have to be scripted and fire each turn. That would be way too much to build into this.

So you have to compromise. First, there's a hard coded limit that we've run across for expeditionary forces of 1. There's some builds in French force pools for "foreign" but they are French controlled and will not have higher cohesion or the like. The French Force pool builds are a work around to attempted to recognize multi-national forces, but in truth they are really French forces that have the word "Pole" or "German" on it.

Yes, minors should be passive. Conquering a minor (or RHC or Westphalia) should give full control to conquering major. Conquering major should be able to build out minor force pools within the minor country and if possible within the game engine, the minor should be limited outside of minor country. Making the minor a part of the major removes the AI DOW mess. Austria will not be able to DOW Bavaria because Bavaria will be a part of France. Same with Saxony or Prussia, unless Prussia does a DOW against France itself. This also provides full visibility of supply within the minor which has been another issue.

This is all the stuff I'm working on in the mod. I'll add AI once all the scripts, RGD, events are fixed up.

[Baris]

Area restriction could be historically plausable for player control in Egypt, especially for Muhammad Ali Pasha- he wasn't strong enough to be much independent in 1805- It could be also similar approach maybe with Moldavia?

[veji1]

France had 200,000 multi-national troops going into Russia (less than the 60% you mention, but numbers do vary by historian). You can't check for adjacent territories or something of the like and then further away. It would have to be scripted and fire each turn. That would be way too much to build into this.

So you have to compromise. First, there's a hard coded limit that we've run across for expeditionary forces of 1. There's some builds in French force pools for "foreign" but they are French controlled and will not have higher cohesion or the like. The French Force pool builds are a work around to attempted to recognize multi-national forces, but in truth they are really French forces that have the word "Pole" or "German" on it.

Yes, minors should be passive. Conquering a minor (or RHC or Westphalia) should give full control to conquering major. Conquering major should be able to build out minor force pools within the minor country and if possible within the game engine, the minor should be limited outside of minor country. Making the minor a part of the major removes the AI DOW mess. Austria will not be able to DOW Bavaria because Bavaria will be a part of France. Same with Saxony or Prussia, unless Prussia does a DOW against France itself. This also provides full visibility of supply within the minor which has been another issue.

This is all the stuff I'm working on in the mod. I'll add AI control once all the scripts, events are fixed up.

regarding french troops in russia, remember that in 1812 it is the biggest France, the France of 130 departments which included Tuscany, Holland, Belgium, all the west coast of the Rhine and the north sea territory all the way to Hamburg. Many of the 300 000 so called "french" are actually from those territories meaning that the actual french, able to somewhat speak french for example, was a lot lower.

[vicberg]

Area restriction could be historically plausable for player control in Egypt, especially for Muhammad Ali Pasha- he wasn't strong enough to be much independent in 1805- It could be also similar approach maybe with Moldavia?

Again, you have to compromise. AI control of minors is a nice concept and understandable, but the AI isn't up to the task. Determine how far a unit is away from it's "home" isn't possible within this game engine. It is possible in a 2 player game, which this engine was built for.

The DOW issues will eventually get fixed most likely by making the AI completely passive. However, it still won't be enough. "Foreign" troops will not be able to be built. The French "foreign" builds are really French troops with the name "German" or "Pole" on it and guess what, I believe they get built in France, not Germany or Poland.

Here's another example. RHC is formed. Great. All that does is transfer 4 regions directly to RHC (formerly HRE) and enable a build option for France (create regiments). After that, Berg, Baden, Hessen, Bavaria, etc., will still be independent countries with an AI that doesn't build replacements unless a script gives them replacements. In other words, RHC doesn't do anything.

Let's paint another picture. RHC is formed. Baden, Berg, Bavaria, Hessen, Nassau, Wurttemburg and HRE become the RHC (with the troops listed as RHC) and under complete control by France. Throw in Westphalia later (and Saxony becomes RHC), Italy, Tuscany, Papacy, Sicilly and Duchy of Warsaw and you can see why everyone eventually ganged up on France. It becomes the super power it was.

Limitations for attacking outside territory I believe are game logic configurations. I may play around with them but they will affect all units of the country. This is the trade off. Allow minors to remain independent and AI controlled and France will always be relatively weak as the AI won't do much if anything with the minor forces. Allow France full control (and other major powers conquering minors, not just limited to France) and then fighting outside the country becomes an issue for all French forces (which may be ok and I'll review it). Another way of addressing minor weakness if making sure their models aren't very good, which would affect them in all battles. A compromise.

[veji1]

Again, you have to compromise. AI control of minors is a nice concept and understandable, but the AI isn't up to the task. Determine how far a unit is away from it's "home" isn't possible within this game engine. It is possible in a 2 player game, which this engine was built for.

The DOW issues will eventually get fixed most likely by making the AI completely passive. However, it still won't be enough. "Foreign" troops will not be able to be built. The French "foreign" builds are really French troops with the name "German" or "Pole" on it and guess what, I believe they get built in France, not Germany or Poland.

Here's another example. RHC is formed. Great. All that does is transfer 4 regions directly to RHC (formerly HRE) and enable a build option for France (create regiments). After that, Berg, Baden, Hessen, Bavaria, etc., will still be independent countries with an AI that doesn't build replacements unless a script gives them replacements. In other words, RHC doesn't do anything.

Let's paint another picture. RHC is formed. Baden, Berg, Bavaria, Hessen, Nassau, Wurttemburg and HRE become the RHC (with the troops listed as RHC) and under complete control by France. Throw in Westphalia later (which includes Saxony) and Duchy of Warsaw and you can see why everyone eventually ganged up on France. It becomes the super power it was.

Limitations for attacking outside territory I believe are game logic configurations. I may play around with them but they will affect all units of the country. This is the trade off. Allow minors to remain independent and AI controlled and France will always be relatively weak as the AI won't do much if anything with the minor forces. Allow France full control (and other major powers conquering minors, not just limited to France) and then fighting outside the country becomes an issue for all French forces (which may be ok and I'll review it). Another way of addressing minor weakness if making sure their models aren't very good, which would affect them in all battles. A compromise.

There should be a way : the militia units in AACW had this penalty, confederate line infantry could fight everywhere well, but Alabama militia sucked a lot more outside of Alabama, and same for other countries + that game and CW2 had the concept of "theaters as well".

We would need a word from the dev but something should be doable.

yet the 2 big issues I underlined remain :
- Minors being dowed and creating messy situation (ie the Bavaria gangbang)
- Supply distribution being an utter and complete mess as it stands whenever allied territory becomes involved...

These to me are the 2 biggest issues the game needs to solve right now to keep progressing.

[vicberg]

If it's there, I'll find it.

RGD cards can be adjusted by you if you wish to test out. Let me know and I'll be happy to integrate into the mod. Go to GameData/RgnDecisions. Go to AGEOD Wiki and search for Regional Decisions, which explains the configurations. Play with it. If you don't want to screw up you base game, copy everything under NGC into a new directory within Wars of Napoleon and rename the directory. Use MODPATH.INI and enter your new directory and it will bring up game using these new files. When you want to play base, go to MODPATH.INI and remove whatever is there.

The Minor DOW issue is for the devs as this is built into engine. The supply distribution model can be fixed by allowing RGD Supply cards to be built on any Friendly controlled territory. I'm fixing events right now (RHC at the moment, then Westphalia and then reviewing events REQUIRING a French DOW or something else like that so the game can be more flexible). I haven't had time for RGD fixes yet.

[veji1]

If it's there, I'll find it.

RGD cards can be adjusted by you if you wish to test out. Let me know and I'll be happy to integrate into the mod. Go to GameData/RgnDecisions. Go to AGEOD Wiki and search for Regional Decisions, which explains the configurations. Play with it. If you don't want to screw up you base game, copy everything under NGC into a new directory within Wars of Napoleon and rename the directory. Use MODPATH.INI and enter your new directory and it will bring up game using these new files. When you want to play base, go to MODPATH.INI and remove whatever is there.

The Minor DOW issue is for the devs as this is built into engine. The supply distribution model can be fixed by allowing RGD Supply cards to be built on any Friendly controlled territory. I'm fixing events right now (RHC at the moment, then Westphalia and then reviewing events REQUIRING a French DOW or something else like that so the game can be more flexible). I haven't had time for RGD fixes yet.

I don't think RGDs woudl fix the supply grid problem : each country has it's own grid and it only works in territory HE has more than 50% MC on, which means either his territory or occupied ennemy territory, but allied territory becomes some sort of impassable Sahara... This is the key issue. The grid more than the depot.

[vicberg]

No, if you have supply access it uses the country that has given supply access. Passage rights give troop access. Foreign access gives both.

So it becomes based on Military Control the minor has over it's own regions. Building supply depots through that region works just fine. The problem is that you currently cannot build depots in that minor, so you are dependent on the depots already there. The issue with not being able to SEE that supply using the supply filter is an issue because the Major Power isn't listed as a sub-faction of the minor. But supply IS flowing. I've verified that.

Once you are in "enemy" territory, then your own military control is crucial. You are right that it will not help with Minors that have been attacked by others and no longer have military control.

[Montbrun]

I'm currently in the process of working on the historical Orders of Battle for all of the Minor Nations (I'll get to the Majors later).

The troops for the Kingdom of Italy, and Bavaria were definitely the best - on par with French units. On the other hand, most of the troops from Naples, outside of the Guard, which were French, were abysmal. Units of all of the Minor German countries served in Spain at some time, and performed credibly. All of the Minors contributed units that were distributed throughout the Empire, and were integrated into the French military system. The French tended to form these units into their own "national" brigades and divisions, and by 1811-12, their own corps. The only "regional restriction" that I have come across, is that, after the 1805 campaign in Austria, Napoleon restricted the use of Dutch troops to their "area of influence," because, he found that, they were good troops, but their march discipline was lacking - they moved slower than French troops, and tended to straggle.

This is, of course, a generalization.

[vicberg]

Understand and would work just fine using models that reflect the inferior quality. Dutch troops have a much higher COHMOVE cost. French troops should have a much lower COHMOVE and ATRMOVE cost as they consistently throughout 10 years of war showed the ability to move quickly with low attrition rates.

This works within the game engine just fine.

[veji1]

I'm currently in the process of working on the historical Orders of Battle for all of the Minor Nations (I'll get to the Majors later).

The troops for the Kingdom of Italy, and Bavaria were definitely the best - on par with French units. On the other hand, most of the troops from Naples, outside of the Guard, which were French, were abysmal. Units of all of the Minor German countries served in Spain at some time, and performed credibly. All of the Minors contributed units that were distributed throughout the Empire, and were integrated into the French military system. The French tended to form these units into their own "national" brigades and divisions, and by 1811-12, their own corps. The only "regional restriction" that I have come across, is that, after the 1805 campaign in Austria, Napoleon restricted the use of Dutch troops to their "area of influence," because, he found that, they were good troops, but their march discipline was lacking - they moved slower than French troops, and tended to straggle.

This is, of course, a generalization.

Of course I didn't mean they were crap, I was just suggesting this as a way to prevent egregious exploits. one could if not give a small cohesion penalty, maybe make them slower ? the idea would be to still keep a heavy burden on the french national troops themselves, not allow them to spread the load too easily.

[Pocus]

Here are the new entries pertaining to Diplomacy, for the next beta patch:


Diplomacy
You no longuer gets a free +1 warscore per turn when fighting a minor nation (was up to 10).
You no longuer gets a CB against satellites nations.
Creation of Duchy of Warsaw won't move French units outside the duchy.
prohibited DOW: target is a minor allied to a major, and this major has a peace IE with us
True defensive treaty: Major nation <A> gets a CB against another enemy major nation <B>, if in a def treaty with ally major <C> being attacked by <B>

[veji1]

Here are the new entries pertaining to Diplomacy, for the next beta patch:


Diplomacy
You no longuer gets a free +1 warscore per turn when fighting a minor nation (was up to 10).
You no longuer gets a CB against satellites nations.
Creation of Duchy of Warsaw won't move French units outside the duchy.
prohibited DOW: target is a minor allied to a major, and this major has a peace IE with us
True defensive treaty: Major nation <A> gets a CB against another enemy major nation <B>, if in a def treaty with ally major <C> being attacked by <B>

Thanks Pocus, this is useful.

Could you shed a light on how supply flows within an ally ? If as the french I build a depot in occupied Salzburg, what type of supply does it drain ? Can it drain french supply all the way from France through allied depots ? does it drain ally supply (say from neighbouring Bavaria?) or does it just drain local occupied austrian supply ?

[vicberg]

Jumping the Pocus response. It flows from France via depots through minors that have given supply access. Do August 1805 again. Supply is flowing into French Troops as they get Regensburg, Salzburg, down to Wien.

A depot on the major road between Ulm and Regensburg helps. There's an Austrian held territory and I forget the name but it's right between Ulm (depot) and Regensburg (another Depot). I can promise that multiple French Corp are not living off the land and Bavaria and Wurttemburg alone cannot supply the entire French force. With that depot, I'm able to be at 100% supply throughout the campaign. The supply must be coming from France.

[Montbrun]

Jumping the Pocus response. It flows from France via depots through minors that have given supply access. Do August 1805 again. Supply is flowing into French Troops as they get Regensburg, Salzburg, down to Wien.

A depot on the major road between Ulm and Regensburg helps. There's an Austrian held territory and I forget the name but it's right between Ulm (depot) and Regensburg (another Depot). I can promise that multiple French Corp are not living off the land and Bavaria and Wurttemburg alone cannot supply the entire French force. With that depot, I'm able to be at 100% supply throughout the campaign. The supply must be coming from France.

Can someone tell me what's going on with French Supply in Portugal?

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?42432-Spain-and-Portugal

[veji1]

Jumping the Pocus response. It flows from France via depots through minors that have given supply access. Do August 1805 again. Supply is flowing into French Troops as they get Regensburg, Salzburg, down to Wien.

A depot on the major road between Ulm and Regensburg helps. There's an Austrian held territory and I forget the name but it's right between Ulm (depot) and Regensburg (another Depot). I can promise that multiple French Corp are not living off the land and Bavaria and Wurttemburg alone cannot supply the entire French force. With that depot, I'm able to be at 100% supply throughout the campaign. The supply must be coming from France.

In winter 1806 murat in regent burg and d'août in wien started starving whereas there was always continuous controlled territory +lots of depots previously built in bavarian and Austria. ..

[vicberg]

Winter reduces Depot range. So

1) Do you have a chain of depots from France to Burg and D'aout no further than 2-3 regions away?
2) In Portugal, the Spanish have limited depots from France into Spain until some event builds a bunch. Check from France down into Spain. Any depots more than 3 away? Also taking ports help as merchants in the boxes provide supply to ports.

It only takes one chink of the supply chain to stop up supply.

[veji1]

Winter reduces Depot range. So

1) Do you have a chain of depots from France to Burg and D'aout no further than 2-3 regions away?
2) In Portugal, the Spanish have limited depots from France into Spain until some event builds a bunch. Check from France down into Spain. Any depots more than 3 away? Also taking ports help as merchants in the boxes provide supply to ports.

It only takes one chink of the supply chain to stop up supply.

Tons, I loaded Bavaria with depots.

[Offworlder]

On the issue of foreign contingents, maybe someone could come up with a system like in BOA. Remember the British could get regular, Scot or Hessian mercenaries through RDGs? So say, once a year, a number of RDGs could come into play giving a number of formations directly in Paris representing the levies that the Napoleonic system entailed. A similar system may be applied to Prussia (which could hire Hessian and Brunswicker forces), Austria with Croats and Hungarians and the Russians with Cossacks. Expeditionary forces will be limited to a war's duration.

I think that this would also solve the issue which I see in the game in that both Italy and the Netherlands (and the Swiss) contributed directly to the Grande Armee from the very beginning of the period covered by the game. Furthermore, this will keep a clear distinction between those foreigners serving permanently with the army and those levied or gang pressed for a particular war.

[vicberg]

supLowLoyaltyThresold = -1 // if this value or less, multiply countryscape supply by supLowLoyalty_
supLowLoyaltyCoeff = 50 // 0.5 if under x0.5 supLowLoyaltyThresold (peasants hiding food)
supMaxDistanceInDays = 30 // Automated Supply system: max distance in days per segment, recommended: 2.5x of days/turn for Industrial Period
supNbIter = 3 // Automated Supply system: #of iterations (2 or 3)
supMinCtrlForMoving = 25 // Min control to have supply pass-through
supEvaCoeffPlunder = 2 // each evasion point of the capturing stack allows to keep this % of supply.

supGHQLeaderGenBonus = 60 // supply bonus in general supply if a GHQ leader
supGHQLeaderAmmoBonus = 40 // supply bonus in ammo supply if a GHQ leader
supGHQLeaderPowerBonus = 0 // supply bonus in power supply if a GHQ leader
supHQLeaderGenBonus = 30 // supply bonus in general supply if a HQ leader
supHQLeaderAmmoBonus = 20 // supply bonus in ammo supply if a HQ leader
supHQLeaderPowerBonus = 0 // supply bonus in power supply if a HQ leader

You are in winter. So check movement between where Murat is at and closest Supply Depot. Look at 2.5 x 7 (7 days in turn) as a good start. If your movement to supply depot is more than 18 days, you are hosed. Also assuming you have more than 25% control. Control determines amount of supply moving through region, so even if you have 25% control, it means only 25% supply moving through region. Also check minor loyalty because many of these minor regions have multiple loyalties going on. So if minor loyalty is say, 60%, only 60% of supplies making it through that region.

[veji1]

Could do the trick: the rhc event gives the french rgds for many German minors, the duchy of Warsaw for poles, etc...