Battle Casualties Still Too High Yet Again

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Hm that's strange (for me) indeed. If all stacks are retreating successfully (and it looks as if that's the case), they're usually switched to passive posture with orders to retreat to an adjacent region and the battle ends. I'm not sure why this is not the case here. It seems that even though the French faction is retreating due to auto-retreat, at least one french stack (the grande armée) keeps the battle alive. It can't be the Austrians who were in defensive posture. Were your stacks (especially the grande armee) in passive posture for the next turn? And did all stacks take part in the remaining two rounds of combat or only the grande armée?

Other than that, I can't provide any further help. I'm not sure if armies react in a special way to pursuits/are not switched to passive posture.

On a sidenote: It's also nice to know that retrreat always succeeds if there are no enemies in offensive posture in the region. Another piece of information that is not shown in RoP battlelogs.

[vicberg]

Then there's is probably a defect in the engine causing the very high losses. Whether it's an attribute setting of the CiC or something of the like, these armies are retreating, taking pursuit hits, not switching posture and then initiating further combat.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Don't judge so quickly. I'm not a dev. Maybe it's something we just don't know/understand correctly.

[vicberg]

Key word is probable defect. Not certain what is going on.

[vicberg]

Hm that's strange (for me) indeed. If all stacks are retreating successfully (and it looks as if that's the case), they're usually switched to passive posture with orders to retreat to an adjacent region and the battle ends. I'm not sure why this is not the case here. It seems that even though the French faction is retreating due to auto-retreat, at least one french stack (the grande armée) keeps the battle alive. It can't be the Austrians who were in defensive posture. Were your stacks (especially the grande armee) in passive posture for the next turn? And did all stacks take part in the remaining two rounds of combat or only the grande armée?

Other than that, I can't provide any further help. I'm not sure if armies react in a special way to pursuits/are not switched to passive posture.

On a sidenote: It's also nice to know that retrreat always succeeds if there are no enemies in offensive posture in the region. Another piece of information that is not shown in RoP battlelogs.

Starting next turn, both Ney and Lannes were in defensive posture. Nappy is still in offensive posture. For some reason, he isn't switching posture, probably because he's Nappy, and that's causing the combats to continue. What is more interesting is that Nappy is in adjacent region doing MTSG. Let me try this again turning Nappy into defensive posture

[veji1]

Don't judge so quickly. I'm not a dev. Maybe it's something we just don't know/understand correctly.

This is why it would be useful to hear from the devs here...

Feel like blowing a horn in a storm but we need to hear from them on the matter.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Indeed if Nappy stays offensive even after auto-retreat, this might be causing some problems. Did you check whether the other stacks (which should have been switched to passive) 1. took part in the ongoing combat and 2. suffered mali in the battle for being in passive stance?

[vicberg]

And this point I'm stumped. This time with Nappy in defensive posture, the casualties jumped back up to 100k first bttle and 30k second. More of the same in the battle log. It looks like the French Corp are doing an auto-retreat, taking hits and not switching posture nor retreating from the region.

3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Round 0 ended
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Battle in 1194 Wien Day: 5 Round: 1
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget 5e Corps is targetting Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1001412 5e Corps new target is 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget 6e Corps is targetting Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1001567 6e Corps new target is 1004298 Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1001038 Grande Armée 90 %, Rolled: 1 Commited
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Grande Armée is targetting Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1001038 Grande Armée supports 1001412 5e Corps against 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004298 Wernek Korps new target is 1001567 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Erz. Johann' Force is targetting 5e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force new target is 1001412 5e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1004277 Bayerische Armee 65 %, Rolled: 30 Commited
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Bayerische Armee is targetting 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1004277 Bayerische Armee supports 1004298 Wernek Korps against 1001567 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for France in region 1194 Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Auto retreat triggered, TotalHits remaining: 1026 Avg Cohesion%: 89 Base AutoRet%: 10 Hits taken: 132
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Auto retreat: Hits received altered by the CiC's ROE retreat will 1001040 Napoleon Bonaparte 100
[color="#FF8C00"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée will take 6 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001038 Grande Armée has called off offensive Wien[/color]
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps will take 29 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001567 6e Corps has called off offensive Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps will take 12 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001412 5e Corps has called off offensive Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for Austria in region 1194 Wien
[color="#FF8C00"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) No need to retreat from this battle (enemy at 0 power).[/color]
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1001038 Grande Armée 70 %, Rolled: 30 Commited
[color="#FF8C00"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Grande Armée is targetting Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting Grande Armée
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1001038 Grande Armée initiating fight against faction 1000004 engaging: 1004298 Wernek Korps[/color]
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting Grande Armée
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004298 Wernek Korps new target is 1001038 Grande Armée
3:44:33 PM (Reporting)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Round # 1 starting
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Checking Battle Abilities given by 1001412 5e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group Lvl [9/Fire Discipline] Off: 121 Def: 121 Aslt: 121 Init: 0

[vicberg]

Indeed if Nappy stays offensive even after auto-retreat, this might be causing some problems. Did you check whether the other stacks (which should have been switched to passive) 1. took part in the ongoing combat and 2. suffered mali in the battle for being in passive stance?

After the turn, none of the French Corp were in passive. They were in defensive. I just posted latest battle log with Nappy in DEFENSIVE posture. So at beginning of next turn, all of them were defensive.

[veji1]

Vicberg, your efforts are greatly appreciated but we need some guidance from the devs here. There are things deep in the system that don't work the way should.

[vicberg]

This is why it would be useful to hear from the devs here...

Feel like blowing a horn in a storm but we need to hear from them on the matter.

In technology, it's often a process of elimination to find where the problem is.

1) Adjusted artillery damage/cohesion done
2) Modified infantry hits (doubled them)
3) Modified to hit coeef
4) Modified base auto-retreat/cohesion bonus (both up and way down)

Nothing has made a difference, so by process of elimination, it's looking more and more like the engine which is doing this.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

[color="#FF0000"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) No need to retreat from this battle (enemy at 0 power).[/color]

The line "no need to retreat" refers to the Austrians. As it should be, the power of the retreating faction in the region is set to 0, so that the "victors" do not see any reason to retreat out of the region. However, what seems unusual to my RoP-eyes is that Bonaparte just pretends to retreat (and lets all his troops suffer pursuit casualties) but then re-initiates the fight. He seems to be exceptionally stubborn. I wonder if this happens with other leaders (or just armies) too though and also if retreat is triggered by "voluntary" retreat rather than by "auto"-retreat.

[veji1]

In technology, it's often a process of elimination to find where the problem is.

1) Adjusted artillery damage/cohesion done
2) Modified infantry hits (doubled them)
3) Modified to hit coeef
4) Modified base auto-retreat/cohesion bonus (both up and way down)

Nothing has made a difference, so by process of elimination, it's looking more and more like the engine which is doing this.

I don't know either but to me it looks like units get locked in a combat to the death like two deers stuck by the antlers, whereas units should rotate inside a battle (from the frontline to reserve and back depending on how beat up or not they are) and from and to a battle (retreat from a battle when hurt to badly in terms of hits or cohesion).

But that is very complicated and hard to read.

[vicberg]

it's very difficult looking at the battle logs what type of rotation is going on. The devs can speak to that.

In terms of what has been highlighted above, the French are retreating, taking hits from being pursued and then continuing to fight. Something is definitely wrong. The French should be retreating, combat is over, no death struggle and the deer is free to run away.

[veji1]

it's very difficult looking at the battle logs what type of rotation is going on. The devs can speak to that.

In terms of what has been highlighted above, the French are retreating, taking hits from being pursued and then continuing to fight. Something is definitely wrong. The French should be retreating, combat is over, no death struggle and the deer is free to run away.

indeed. Now the best thing would be to able to sandbox the battle with other leaders because Napoleon's many weird abilities might play a role. Could you just go back one turn, replace Napoleon as leader of the Grande Armee by a 3 star and see how it goes ?

[vicberg]

Now you are thinking like a developer. Excellent idea and another process of elimination. I ran Nappy out of the combat area. Murat was in charge of the Grand Armee and....(drum roll)

Same results

3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Round 0 ended
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Battle in 1194 Wien Day: 5 Round: 1
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget 5e Corps is targetting Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1001412 5e Corps new target is 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget 6e Corps is targetting Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1001567 6e Corps new target is 1004298 Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1001038 Grande Armée 90 %, Rolled: 1 Commited
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Grande Armée is targetting Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1001038 Grande Armée supports 1001412 5e Corps against 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004298 Wernek Korps new target is 1001567 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Erz. Johann' Force is targetting 5e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004717 Erz. Johann' Force new target is 1001412 5e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1004277 Bayerische Armee 65 %, Rolled: 30 Commited
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Bayerische Armee is targetting 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1004277 Bayerische Armee supports 1004298 Wernek Korps against 1001567 6e Corps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for France in region 1194 Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Auto retreat triggered, TotalHits remaining: 1026 Avg Cohesion%: 89 Base AutoRet%: 10 Hits taken: 132
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Auto retreat: Hits received altered by the CiC's ROE retreat will 1001040 Napoleon Bonaparte 100
[color="#FFA500"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Grande Armée will take 6 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001038 Grande Armée has called off offensive Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 6e Corps will take 29 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001567 6e Corps has called off offensive Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps There is no enemy on offensive, retreat is automatic.
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps succeeded in retreating
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 5e Corps will take 12 hits while retreating (though no hits can be done on round 0)[/color]
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Group 1001412 5e Corps has called off offensive Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Checking combat stance for Austria in region 1194 Wien
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) No need to retreat from this battle (enemy at 0 power).
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) Commit Chance 1001038 Grande Armée 70 %, Rolled: 30 Commited
[color="#FFA500"]3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Grande Armée is targetting Wernek Korps
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting Grande Armée
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) GiveGroupsTargets 1001038 Grande Armée initiating fight against faction 1000004 engaging: 1004298 Wernek Korps[/color]
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) TGroup.SetTarget Wernek Korps is targetting Grande Armée
3:44:33 PM (Reporting) 1004298 Wernek Korps new target is 1001038 Grande Armée

[veji1]

gee.. I have no clue really. Thanks for all the work you are doing though.

Actually we might be witnessing not a problem with the model, hit ratios and stuff, but a plain bug.

[lycortas2]

'kay, next.... there is a rule that states when you are in a region with more than 50% enemy military control you auto switch to offensive posture.
Could this be causing Grand Armee to switch back to offensive posture?

[vicberg]

That could be it. Melk borders Wien. Lannes and Ney were both in Wien and Nappy/Murat in Melk. I set both Nappy/Murat to defensive posture, so that explains why they would switch to offensive and MC was definately 0 during the combat (or probably less than 50).

[vicberg]

UPDATE: I made sure I was running the combat options from latest patch and reran the turn a couple of times

First time:

With Murat in charge of the Grand Armee, the Grand Armee did not MTSG (Murat is no Nappy. I know Nappy. Nappy was my friend. You sir, are no Nappy). Lannes and Ney broke off combat after 1 round and casualties were about 15% for each side. Both French Corp did not retreat from the region and the Grand Armee gave moral support only from Melk

Second Time:

Finding the above very interesting, I reran a second time with Nappy in charge of the Grand Armee in defensive posture. I already knew whats going to happen (definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results), so this time I changed the control rules in game logic to give Nappy 51% MC moving into the region. Combat still lasted 6 rounds twice, casualties over 100k first battle and 40k second battle.

[color="#FFA500"]SUMMARY:This isn't a Nappy issue. It's a Grand Armee issue. If the Grand Armee does a MTSG into combat, it will cause the combat to last for 6 rounds with enormous losses, each round retreating and taking retreat hits, but continuing to initiate combat. Also in the 10+ times I've run this battle, the French Corp simply will not retreat from Wien. That strikes me as odd also.[/color]

[veji1]

I see 2 issues here :
- A Grand Armee issue where it seems to fight to the death (well everybody's not just theirs).
- Still an engine issue with losses accruing too fast : 1 round shouldn't lead to 15% losses per side, this is too fast. A round is sort of 90 minutes of battle more or less : a typical 3 to 4 rounds battle is the typical 4 to 6 hours battle. Battles were LOOOOOONG, and looked indecisive for a long time before one side started crumbling. So casualties should rise more slowly and cohesions should be more efficiently and accross the board eroded. a unit fighting in a battle should lose something like 10% of its cohesion per round : after 5 rounds of battle a unit that hasn't been too damaged in terms of casualties but fought in those 5 rounds should still just have say 60% cohesion.

[vicberg]

Lycortas2 was under the impression that if you double the number of hits, the cohesion is spread across those hits. It doesn't work that way. If a unit has a cohesion of 70 and takes a hit that causes cohesion of 20, then the unit (modified by a few things) will have 50 cohesion remaining. Doesn't matter how many hits the unit has. The number of hits determines if the units is destroyed or not. That's about it.

In CW2, the units have roughly the same number of men as WON, but double the hits. Lycortas is right that this is a problem. It's too easy to destroy units in WON, since CW2 is a very solid game to compare against.

The models will need to be tweaked. I just compared 12 lb artillery from CW2 to WON.

CW2:
OffFire = 16
DefFire = 30
Range = 5
ROF = 2
DmgDone = 2
CohDone = 12

WON:
OffFire = 8
DefFire = 10
Range = 6
ROF = 2
DmgDone = 2
CohDone = 40

To my knowledge they were the roughly the same 12lb artillery (probably with a few tech improvements over 50 years). I can understand perhaps the lack of accuracy as compared to civil war, but the cohesion done is off the charts. In CW2, for each hit, 12 cohesion is applies. An average unit can take 5-6 hits before their cohesion is completely gone. In WON, 2 hits and the unit is gone.

[vicberg]

Here's a sample of 6 lb comparision

CW2:
OffFire = 10
DefFire = 18
Range = 5
ROF = 2
DmgDone = 2
CohDone = 8

WON:
OffFire = 8
DefFire = 10
Range = 5
ROF = 2
DmgDone = 1
CohDone = 30

Keep in mind that all units in WON also start with less cohesion than CW2. That makes a lot of sense. So the affect of causing MORE cohesion is a problem. Same issue with # of hits each unit has. Arty between the two games is causing the same amount of damage, but because the units have 1/2 the hits in WON, they are getting destroyed much easier.

[vicberg]

A little more analysis....

Units in CW2 have 20 hits and 30 men per hit = 600 men. INF cause 2 damage per hit and 15 cohesion. Arty 2 damage per hit and 12 or less cohesion. Everything has an ROF of 2. Slightly higher chances to hit with CW units (which makes sense) and defensive fire significantly higher than offensive fire (also makes sense).

Units in WON have 8 hits and 100 men per hit = 800 men. WON defensive fire should be lower because though the tactics were primarily the same (at least at start of CW), the defensive mindedness wasn't there in Napoleonic times nor the accuracy. Look at this from basic mathematics, a unit in CW2 can take 10 hits before being destroyed at 2 damage per hit. INF units in WON cause 1 damage per hit, so a unit can take 8 hits, so the number of hits relative to CW2 might be ok. [color="#FF8C00"]The problem is that the ARTY is causing way too much damage and cohesion relative to the unit sizes.[/color]

[JacquesDeLalaing]

So you two want to slow battles down because too many casualties are inflicted per round? Then indeed go for the damage-stats of models (fire or assault?). Another thing to consider is how many points of cohesion are spent for actions in combat (fire, assault, being assaulted). If you set the latter values higher, then even the cohesion of units that have not suffered any casualties in combat will be drained slowly.

[vicberg]

They are roughly the same between the two games (CW2 and WON). Artillery in WON loses cohesion much less than CW2. So that's adding to the issue. However, the overall cohesion numbers are significantly different between the two games. In CW2, cohesion for Common Line Infantry is 75. Cohesion for same model in WON is 50. So one hit from an ARTY in WON will take out an INF unit.

[vicberg]

So we do have a problem with infantry as well. Each infantry does 2 damage. Same as CW2, but the unit size is less than 1/2. A CW element has 20 hits. A WON element has 8 hits. So either we double (or more) the element hits (up to 20, like CW2) or reduce the damage done down to 1.

[Mickem2011]

Instead of comparing WoN numbers to CW2 numbers, wouldn't it be better to compare them against Ageod's first Napoleonic game? Seems like the numbers were fine in Napoleon's Campaigns. So maybe the better comparison is between NC and WoN instead of between WoN and CW2.

[vicberg]

Because I own CW2 and I don't own NGC.

[Mickem2011]

Because I own CW2 and I don't own NGC.

I understand but my point is that comparing WoN to CW2 is like comparing apples to oranges. NGC and WoN would offer a similar comparison. I seem to recall the numbers being fine in NGC so it could just be a matter of changing WoN's numbers to match NGC. The question wasn't really directed at you personally. Just more of a suggestion for those who have NGC to compare it to WoN for a possible solution. It's been a few years since I played NGC but I don't remember having casualty rates that were way off like in WoN. The devs got it right in NGC. Since NGC and WoN are similar games I think that's where the answer lies. Using CW2 to try to find a solution may not be as workable since the era and weaponry were different and the numbers in CW2 reflect the Civil War era. You need somebody with a copy of NGC to compare numbers. I'd volunteer to do it but I lost my copy of NGC in my last move. Somebody in this discussion may be able to help though.