AI peace offers

[seathom]

It is now October 1862. I am playing the USA and have Confederates on the ropes. They are pushed back to Charleston and Savannah and pinned in on all sides as well as in Richmond and encircled (have been so since May 1861). I believe the war score is down to 20. At what point will I receive a peace offer? Does the war score go down to 0 before this happens? I assume if I capture Richmond (15 points) and either of the other two cities (5 each, I believe), then I would be at o war score? Just wondering (impatient, as usual).

[Darthkommandant]

There shall be no terms but total and unconditional surrender.

I think you need to take the two cities you mentioned. Still good job btw.

[James D Burns]

It is now October 1862.

Been a while since I played PON but in my game I sat on my lines till 1863 or so (war started in 1859) before I attacked (I let Union morale creep up to near 100). When I did finally attack I did a slow methodical clearing of the map left to right with just one attacking stack so the Union never captured more than one victory location in a single turn.

I think this allowed loyalties in regions on map to shift quite a lot back towards the Union and I actually had several turns that saw lots of little Union units spawn as rebellion units in CSA held territory when all but about half the east coast was gone.

By conquering your map so quickly, you may have some pretty disloyal regions still after peace. Watch loyalty levels in the southern regions and see what happens after conquest to see if you have high unrest even after war’s end.

If so in future you may not want to conquer the south so fast if loyalties don’t have enough time to shift back to the Union before peace. I seem to have a vague recollection of people complaining about incessant riots and strikes after the civil wars end, but the discussion was probably well over 5 years ago on a different forum and I may be miss-remembering things.

Jim

[seathom]

As always, thank Jim for your insights and experiences, it has helped greatly. And danke shoen (sp??) Darthkommandant. I have noticed that my loyalty in every Confederate region is 30%; I guess I'll have to brace myself with plenty of MP's (already have garrisons in each city). Contentment, at least is fine everywhere with 65 in Hamilton, Ohio the persistent laggard. It is now March 1863 and only Richmond survives in its almost 2 year encirclement.

I actually goofed on the war score. I thought war score was nearing 0, but what I thought was a dash was actually a minus sign. I wish AGEOD would put a different color on the tooltips when they use dashes and minus signs, it confuses us! So, somehow my war score was -75 back when I started demolishing the rebel strongholds (how it got that way is beyond me!). War score is now about 35 and climbs every turn even when nothing much happens. I am chasing what was 2/3 of its army around Georgia/Florida (with its now 0 supply) before I go after Richmond (I believe it earns me extra prestige points) while I wait for wars score to go up and hopefully loyalty too (which has been stuck at 30 for over a year).

I believe when I take Richmond, with its 25 morale boost (not the 15 I stated above), my NM will be well over 160 and I believe when it hits 150 I have an automatic victory? I hope so, it will be near impossible to gather the war score for all the Confederate regions.

A special shout out to Loki. I read the beginning of his S-P AAR when I first started because the economy was stumping me. The other night I jumped to his first S-P/Ottoman War and it was a fascinating read. I really will need to read the AAR in its entirety. Any other PON/VOE AAR's that stick out as good reads?

[seathom]

I think there might have been a tweak in post-victory rebellions. War over in July 1863, currently Nov 1863. No rebellion yet. Loyalty is 100% everywhere (up from 30% at end of war). My lowest contentment is 52% in Colorado and only 48 and 49% in two regions immediately after peace treaty. Maybe the rebellions will be scripted toward historical end. Either way, I do have MP's spread around and garrisons in every city so not too worried (famous last words).

If I were to play again the USA from start I would definitely use your opening strategy (which I was too timid at the start of this campaign from fear of fighting European power early or a two front war) of building up the South and working on CP with Philippines, Guam and other Spanish interests. By not challenging the Spanish, I allowed them to get colonial status in all those yummy territories. Now I have to go round about to foment a war with them, so I used the degrade relations diplomatic option in conjunction with supporting Morocco in hopes a war breaks out between them which I can then enter into. I am also in the process of placing a fleet with explorers/prospectors and expeditionary force (not sure which one is really necessary) off the coast of Cuba to see is I can land them there to gain that needed 5% CP to start allowing more decisions to be played there, but I don't think my fleet will be allowed to park off the coast (I know it didn't work in the Philippines). Any suggestions on how to start a just war? I haven't tried forge casus belli, not sure if possible to have bad outcome with relations to other European powers and not 100% sure I want war to necessarily start war immediately.

[James D Burns]

The Spanish American War didn’t occur historically until the late 1890’s, so I suspect there will be events in game that eventually lead to it. I stopped actively playing my game after the civil war ended and haven’t continued on as yet, so I can’t say for sure if there are events driving it or if you need to instigate the war via diplomatic options.

I do believe that the Philippines, Cuba, Guam etc. all start firmly in Spanish control so war will be your only choice to get them, I doubt colonialism will work, but again I haven’t looked at it closely so I’m just guessing here.

Jim

[HerrDan]

There will be event for the American-Spanish War, but, as already pointed out, much later as happened irl. You can try to forge a cb, it's not that hard to get a cb, obwohl I don't think it would be good for the usa to declare war on Spain so early...

[seathom]

Why not declare war on Spain early? I would be doing most of the fighting in Cuba and Puerto Rico which is so close to my nation and farther away from Spain. Secondary front would be the Philippines, Guam and Marshall Islands which I can stage my forces on the west coast and ship pretty quickly to Hawaii and Samoa. Third front would be North Africa, definitely trickier, but probably wouldn't go there until Spanish forces are roundly beaten elsewhere.

Militarily, I am very close to Britain and #2 in the world. I should be able to smash their fleets and they have no alliances and only Portugal and Netherlands are pretty friendly to them.

I am totally recovered from the Civil War (well, I was reckless with my soldiers and actually have lost 600,000 since 1850), but my economy is humming. What pitfalls do you see? My relations with Britain (especially) and France are very good, Russia and Prussia OK. Japan dislikes me even more than Spain right now (which is what I want and is still in a super long war with Russia).

I have not had a crisis yet and would love to pick up additional VP's. To my recollection, there have only been two crises so far in this campaign, which leads me to think I might have chosen a less aggressive AI (if that is even a game option?).

[HerrDan]

It's simply not realistic...

[seathom]

Attacking Spain in the late 1860's won't be historical, but my alternatives are waiting for Indian uprisings and playing whack a mole with them (pretty boring stuff there); or steadily building up my economy and pressing end turn very quickly. I do want to wait until after the Civil War ended IRL just in case uprisings and reconstruction events are scripted, but in the meantime I will continue degrading my relations with Spain. The USA did not have any real battles until 1898 and 35 years of sitting on my hands probably won't build up enough VP to win (and that is the reason I am playing).

On a side note, I did a forum search to find out why shutting down factories to stop overproducing is a popular tactic. I only did it with shipbuilding at the beginning of the game because the capital losses were too expensive to maintain. I had a predisposition against shutting down factories on the assumption that should create unemployment which should create discontent; however, I found out that the plant workers become craftsmen and produce items on a smaller scale. This is very logical because the mindset of the people at this time was to work and not collect unemployment (as is so today!). So from now on, I also will suggest shutting down factories to "sort out" economic issues.

I am probably overproducing in my campaign. Many of the primary products I sell are at 2 pounds (sorry, don't have the keyboard knowledge to do the British Pound mark). Does anyone know how responsive the trade prices are to supply and demand? If I am dumping a lot of excess goods on the market the price will drop. Is it better to lower production to bring the prices up or keep them low so other nations can buy cheaply and thus stimulate industrial growth with low-priced unfinished and semi-finished products? Does anything else effect the trading prices other than historically scripted economic cycles?

I often ramble, should I be more careful and post new threads rather than go on tangents on a current thread? (Trying to be a better PON citizen!).

[seathom]

I couldn't pass this up. A late 1860's Spanish-American War is unrealistic? I have been reading your very interesting not quite an AAR of the German Empire. No spoilers, please, I'm only on page 12! Maybe it's my inferior American education, but I don't recall the Great German War against Russia of 1897-1899! In fact, after the Franco-Prussian War in the early 1870's, the next German war wasn't until 1898 in East Africa and the Second Samoan War; in fact, I believe German troops did not face off against Russians until the Great War of 1914-1919!

Maybe you had realized later in your AAR that the Russian war was a mistake (historically speaking of course)? Too bad, IMHO, because it is a fascinating read! Coming off my civil war, where at the end battles I was going, "oh look, a 3500 PWR stack, how cool!" and then seeing your 25,000+ PWR stacks and Russia's not quite invincible 1.3+ million man army and feeling my jaw drop as you ingeniously engineered the AI's defeat (at Konigsburg?).

At least the Spanish-American War really existed, so it's not too unrealistic to force it earlier (for game enjoyment purposes!).

[James D Burns]

so it's not too unrealistic to force it earlier (for game enjoyment purposes!).

Don’t sweat it, it’s your game play it as you see fit. I think HerrDan was simply stating why he’d prefer to wait, and he’s right too. It’s his game he can play it his way, so don’t get caught up in a what’s the right way debate. The right way is your way, have at it.

Personally I’d prefer to wait in my game as I want to see the designed events unfold to see how it’s handled. But I see nothing wrong in engineering a war early, though perhaps you should choose a different target so you have the events to look forward to later.

Those dangerous Canadian’s need to be brought into line. Mexico as well might be a nice target for some US colonialism.

Jim

[HerrDan]

I couldn't pass this up. A late 1860's Spanish-American War is unrealistic? I have been reading your very interesting not quite an AAR of the German Empire. No spoilers, please, I'm only on page 12! Maybe it's my inferior American education, but I don't recall the Great German War against Russia of 1897-1899! In fact, after the Franco-Prussian War in the early 1870's, the next German war wasn't until 1898 in East Africa and the Second Samoan War; in fact, I believe German troops did not face off against Russians until the Great War of 1914-1919!

Maybe you had realized later in your AAR that the Russian war was a mistake (historically speaking of course)? Too bad, IMHO, because it is a fascinating read! Coming off my civil war, where at the end battles I was going, "oh look, a 3500 PWR stack, how cool!" and then seeing your 25,000+ PWR stacks and Russia's not quite invincible 1.3+ million man army and feeling my jaw drop as you ingeniously engineered the AI's defeat (at Konigsburg?).

At least the Spanish-American War really existed, so it's not too unrealistic to force it earlier (for game enjoyment purposes!).

Well, I'm sorry fir you didn't like my commentary, I only wanted to point out that such a venture, just after the end of the American Civil War wouldn't be desired. The american people wouldn't probably want such a war after the terribly losses the country suffered. And also because of the american isolationism tendency at the time. And we also have other complicators in this case, Napoleon III was still in power at this moment and everyone knows how he loved to get involved in this kind of affair, so America would also run short of support for such a venture. So, I'd think you should wait a little to get your war. In the end it's your game, I'm just trying to share my opinion with you, no offense intended.

Regarding my war with Russia, I think it could have happened at the time and the specific situation of the realities of my campaign as it did in fact happen a few years later. Btw why don't you write an AAR? I feel quite alone sometimes with regards to AAR, as I think mine is the only active atm.
The game is a simulation of history, not history itself, but I prefer to create a realistic environment to "justify" the actions I take in the game (i.e. The case with Russia, I roleplayed a reaction to a possible concerned attack from the Russia and France), and that's just the way I like to play and get more fun out of it. Not a rule set in stone.

[seathom]

I have been playing around with the idea of doing an AAR on the Ottoman Empire after I finish the USA campaign. Of course, I will have to take up Loki's suggestions on how to do it because that is a scary endeavor (not the playing of the game, but figuring out how to post it on the site so it is a colorful read and not just words). My skills so far are limited to only words! And yes, I have long known that I have a biting sarcasm (be glad this is not a political message board, I am merciless there). When I put down the USA game for a month I dabbled in the other powers and most enjoyed the Ottoman's. I got up to 1852 or 53 and felt like the Russians were going to crush me and the Brits and French did not look like they were going to help out as they did IRL. I read in someones post that the Russians steamrolled the Ottomans and only took one province (Bessarabia, I believe). So when I play that game, I won't be too worried about losing my first war (especially after seeing the ebb and flow of your German-Russian War, which was amazing!). My only hope is that I get to this before anyone else does as I also noticed that there were a few attempts, but only you and Loki are doing/did a substantial AAR.

Not to quibble, but a German-Russian War did not occur a few years later. Yes, they fought against each other in two wars, but neither war started with a German DOW against Russia.

I'm not too keen on a war against Mexico, all those spanish-speaking regions seem a nightmare to incorporate into the USA. Now, if Mexico were to be allied with Germany, there is the border war fought in the early 1910's (I believe) between these nations that would be interesting to fight without gaining unruly provinces. I assume you mean colonizing as in just incorporating into the nation?

I am heavily interested in fighting the British Empire with Canada being the straw man and going after British colonial territory throughout Africa and the Pacific. Britain has been at around 46% of VP's needed for a win and although I am barely closing the gap, any good crisis would set back my chasing them by about 50 years! Although there is no historical precedence for this in the time period of the campaign, for gaming purposes I think this is a must. Unfortunately, I have built up my relations with Britain to around 65 and France around 40. A British war doesn't seem to make sense, but I may do it nonetheless. Waiting to see how the game handles the Spanish-American War is a very good suggestion.

And I won't throw out the idea of a French-American War either. There is a tricky situation in Fiji. Early in the game native allied troops appeared in Vanuatu for no reason and then were magically transported to Fiji. I apparently was at war with Fiji and took over military control of the island with it being a French protectorate with 35% CP and Britain 25% CP. Again, not historical, but game-wise possible. (Like HerrDan, I also am very rigid with historical game play, but am seriously trying to think outside the box and go for more ahistorical gaming within the parameters of the evolving game play.

... sorry, another long-winded post.

[HerrDan]

Not to quibble, but a German-Russian War did not occur a few years later. Yes, they fought against each other in two wars, but neither war started with a German DOW against Russia.

Well, I'd think we could all agree that it's just a small detail (and btw Germany DOWed Russia in WW1 and WW2). What I meant when I said that, is the fact that, like Christophe Barot once said, it's absolutely feasible and can sound very realistic to make war with almost everyone when playing wilhelmine Germany and still stay on "realistic ground". Germany had a quite aggressive agenda during the reign of Wilhelm II and in my game the situation gave me an "excuse" to attack the russians.

I understand that sometimes we need wars to warm the game up, and I don't think it's "wrong" (I just feel it's "wrong" indeed when someone wants to "paint the world their colour" as some few players do, when playing without historical constraints etc, but that's not your case as I see) , as I stated before, I just feel that JUST AFTER a very bloody war, like the ACW, you should perhaps wait a little before committing to another conflict.

As for the AAR, I feel very glad that you're enjoying reading mine and I'd love to see another one there, so I'm proposing you to start a one for our community

Cheers.

[seathom]

I totally agree that after a bloody war a nation should need to regroup itself. In my civil war, the Union alone lost 600,000 men from combat, with untold civilian deaths -- that's a lot of lost civilian manpower and potential babies. Unfortunately, the game does not seem to take that into effect. I believe I remember reading it lowers population growth after a battle, but I haven't noticed any other ill effects. Maybe I missed population changes (it would be very easy since I haven't taken any screenshots before and after battles). Maybe this is something that can be looked at in future releases?

I promise this will be my last comment on this miniscule topic (I didn't realize I was a last word freak): I said Germany did not start WWI or WWII with a DOW against Russia. Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I am not totally sure of the chain of events regarding DOW's in WWI, but technically I guess it went A-H DOW on Serbia that started the war. (Edit: I got off work 5 hours ago and am starting to feel the affects of not sleeping.)

Anyhow, I still need to finish the next 56 years of game play (or get really ambitious and play two games at once), which will probably end up being the case. Until then we are all counting on you to sustain your AAR!