Blocking supply along rivers

[pgr]

So I have been trying to sort out, in nuts and bolts detail, how supply makes its way across terrain, and particularly rivers, so I started diving into the CODE for answers.

I haven't really done it, but I did stumble across something interesting in the logic file.

// ********************************************************
// ********* BOMBARD AND BLOCKADE *****************
// ********************************************************
....
bmbMinEntrenchLevel = 3 // Minimum level to reach by an artillery so that it can bombards or interdict ships& water supply
...

I always thought that you needed a fort to interdict water supply, but if I understand this correctly, bombarding ships and interdicting supply happen using the same rule. So any stack entrenched to level 3 with cannons of at least range 4, can activate the "bombard passing ships" button, and this will also stop supply from passing along the same section of river?

Does this mean that cannons are what stop supply? Forts automatically activate the bombard function, but would a fort without cannons still block supply along a river?

If this is the case, I'm all for it! This would allow raiders to dig in along a river and effectively cut a supply line in the same way as if they were sitting on top of a railroad, without having to go to the trouble or expense of building a fort, redoubt, or outpost.

So am I crazy, or is this how it works? (And perhaps everyone knew this already )

[Captain_Orso]

Check my reply to your post in the other thread: #27

Yes, this is what I mean with that I think the manual and Wiki are not to be taken 100% literally in this case.

Of course you can use raiders etc. to entrench along a river region, but you still need artillery to interdict the supplies, and it will take a very long time to entrench with just a raider and some single artillery unit.

Also, watch-out for when the Union then sends a couple of Ironclads adjacent to your interdicting battery --or past it numerous times-- and bombards you silly; if your unit is set to bombard, it is also set to be bombarded.

[pgr]

Check my reply to your post in the other thread: #27

Yes, this is what I mean with that I think the manual and Wiki are not to be taken 100% literally in this case.

Of course you can use raiders etc. to entrench along a river region, but you still need artillery to interdict the supplies, and it will take a very long time to entrench with just a raider and some single artillery unit.

Also, watch-out for when the Union then sends a couple of Ironclads adjacent to your interdicting battery --or past it numerous times-- and bombards you silly; if your unit is set to bombard, it is also set to be bombarded.

Ah captain my captain, what would I do with out you! I'm thinking more in the context of a division sized force. Say I park Polk in Paducah with two divisions and plenty of guns, set him to bombard when he hits level three, and done...no more supply down the Mississippi. (And no need to waste time and money building a fort).

As far as taking things literally, I tend to do that! But the manual strongly implies only ships in the water or a fort will get the job done. It's nice to know that isn't strictly the case.

[Gray Fox]

I believe that the stack leader has to be active for the bombard command to work in your example. However, a fort is always active.

[pgr]

I believe that the stack leader has to be active for the bombard command to work in your example. However, a fort is always active.

Well Capt Orso implied that an inactive leader, even in a fort, wouldn't necessarily bombard either. (as I shake my fist at my inactive leaders!)

[Captain_Orso]

Okay, let's do some rule-book writing:

[INDENT]The Bombarding rules also apply to Interdiction, unless otherwise noted. When a River Region is Interdicted, no enemy supplies may pass through it.[/INDENT]
Rule 1: A battery must have range >=4 to be eligible to Bombard.
Rule 2: A battery cannot be in Passive Posture (PP) to Bombard.
Rule 3: A battery cannot be under the command of an inactive leader to Bombard, otherwise batteries may be under control of a leader.
Rule 4: A battery must have at least 50% of it's normal ammo level to Bombard[SUP]1)[/SUP].
Rule 5: A battery inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade[SUP]2)[/SUP] will always bombard, if Rules 1-4 are met.
Rule 6: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must be at Entrenchment Level >=3 to be able to Bombard, in addition to meeting Rules 1-4.
Rule 7: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must have it's Bombard Passing Ships Special Orders button pressed in order to Bombard (there is no icon on the unit on the map to denote this).

[INDENT]These are not all the rules, which apply to Bombardment, but only those which also apply to Interdiction.[/INDENT]

I hope this is a bit clearer now .

[SUP]1)[/SUP] I'm not sure exactly at what level Bombardment will not take place anymore, but it is rather a rare occurrence.
[SUP]2)[/SUP] I have not actually tested, whether Stockades actually work exactly the same a s forts for Bombarding. These rules are assuming this.

[FelixZ]

Okay, let's do some rule-book writing:
[INDENT]The Bombarding rules also apply to Interdiction, unless otherwise noted. When a River Region is Interdicted, no enemy supplies may pass through it.[/INDENT]
Rule 1: A battery must have range >=4 to be eligible to Bombard.
Rule 2: A battery cannot be in Passive Posture (PP) to Bombard.
Rule 3: A battery cannot be under the command of an inactive leader to Bombard, otherwise batteries may be under control of a leader.
Rule 4: A battery must have at least 50% of it's normal ammo level to Bombard[SUP]1)[/SUP].
Rule 5: A battery inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade[SUP]2)[/SUP] will always bombard, if Rules 1-4 are met.
Rule 6: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must be at Entrenchment Level >=3 to be able to Bombard, in addition to meeting Rules 1-4.
Rule 7: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must have it's Bombard Passing Ships Special Orders button pressed in order to Bombard (there is no icon on the unit on the map to denote this).
[INDENT]These are not all the rules, which apply to Bombardment, but only those which also apply to Interdiction.[/INDENT]

I hope this is a bit clearer now .

[SUP]1)[/SUP] I'm not sure exactly at what level Bombardment will not take place anymore, but it is rather a rare occurrence.
[SUP]2)[/SUP] I have not actually tested, whether Stockades actually work exactly the same a s forts for Bombarding. These rules are assuming this.

In a recent game using the tournament settings (1.04RC4 w/AI On), Ft. Monroe was unable to fire at passing CSA ships. All of your requirements were met - except that bombard button could not be activated. There was no spotting message.

Other Forts/Regions (Cairo, St, Louis and Pensacola) with eligible guns did engage passing ships or had a message reporting ships had not been spotted.

I could send you the .hst and .ord files if you are interested.

[tripax]

Bombard also requires double-adjacency, I think. Is that rule satisfied at Ft. Monroe?

[pgr]

In a recent game using the tournament settings (1.04RC4 w/AI On), Ft. Monroe was unable to fire at passing CSA ships. All of your requirements were met - except that bombard button could not be activated. There was no spotting message.

Other Forts/Regions (Cairo, St, Louis and Pensacola) with eligible guns did engage passing ships or had a message reporting ships had not been spotted.

I could send you the .hst and .ord files if you are interested.

Stupid question, but fortress Monroe, at least at the start, has the the giant defect of Ben Butler being present, and frequently inactive. He wasn't in command of everyone inside was he?

Oh, and I'm a bit a dunce, what is double-adjacency?

[FelixZ]

Yes. CSA ships were moving from James River to Hampton Roads to Cape Henry.

Batteries were in Fort Monroe with an active leader, without a leader or with an active leader outside the fort properly entrenched.

[pgr]

Okay, let's do some rule-book writing:

[INDENT]The Bombarding rules also apply to Interdiction, unless otherwise noted. When a River Region is Interdicted, no enemy supplies may pass through it.[/INDENT]
Rule 1: A battery must have range >=4 to be eligible to Bombard.
Rule 2: A battery cannot be in Passive Posture (PP) to Bombard.
Rule 3: A battery cannot be under the command of an inactive leader to Bombard, otherwise batteries may be under control of a leader.
Rule 4: A battery must have at least 50% of it's normal ammo level to Bombard[SUP]1)[/SUP].
Rule 5: A battery inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade[SUP]2)[/SUP] will always bombard, if Rules 1-4 are met.
Rule 6: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must be at Entrenchment Level >=3 to be able to Bombard, in addition to meeting Rules 1-4.
Rule 7: A battery not inside a Fort, Redoubt or Stockade must have it's Bombard Passing Ships Special Orders button pressed in order to Bombard (there is no icon on the unit on the map to denote this).

[INDENT]These are not all the rules, which apply to Bombardment, but only those which also apply to Interdiction.[/INDENT]

I hope this is a bit clearer now .

[SUP]1)[/SUP] I'm not sure exactly at what level Bombardment will not take place anymore, but it is rather a rare occurrence.
[SUP]2)[/SUP] I have not actually tested, whether Stockades actually work exactly the same a s forts for Bombarding. These rules are assuming this.

Oh and this is very helpful! Is there a file that scripts the rules you list (and I haven't found it) or do you just have an impressive ability for synthesis?

[Jim-NC]

He's just that impressive.

Actually, we have had several discussions about this in the past (including some during beta). This is mostly from the forums I believe.

[Captain_Orso]

In a recent game using the tournament settings (1.04RC4 w/AI On), Ft. Monroe was unable to fire at passing CSA ships. All of your requirements were met - except that bombard button could not be activated. There was no spotting message.

From experience, single ships or small squadrons of fast ships (Brigs and Frigates) can often sneak past Fort Monroe. Sometimes a message will say that they were sighted, sometimes it will report that Fort Monroe bombarded them, often scoring no hits.

For artillery inside the fort you cannot press the Bombardment SO button, because Bombardment is automatic. But it is still subject to spotting and actually hitting passing ships.

Other Forts/Regions (Cairo, St, Louis and Pensacola) with eligible guns did engage passing ships or had a message reporting ships had not been spotted.

I could send you the .hst and .ord files if you are interested.

I have no doubt of what you report. On the rivers most of the traffic is river boats, which cannot escape bombardment nearly as easily as fast ocean going ships passing Fort Monroe in coastal waters. If Pesacola(?? are you actually thinking for Fort Pickens?) bombarded passing boats, they were probably river boats too.

Bombard also requires double-adjacency, I think. Is that rule satisfied at Ft. Monroe?

Fort Monroe is adjacent to Hampton Roads (which practically surrounds it) and James Estuary, which is up-river from Fort Monroe. So passing between the two will trigger the DAR.

Stupid question, but fortress Monroe, at least at the start, has the the giant defect of Ben Butler being present, and frequently inactive. He wasn't in command of everyone inside was he?

Historically, Butler was in command of the Department of Virginia from about early June '61 IIRC, after leaving the Department of Maryland where he commanded from mid April until then. So yes, he was in command of Fort Monroe and all the rest of Virginia not belonging to Northern Virginia, where McDowell had the field. Of course, most of the territory they commanded was only commanded on paper

In the April '61 Full Campaign he starts inside Fort Monroe around early May, but even while he is locked, he can be put into an different stack --which would prevent him from hindering bombardment-- or even outside the fort, which I often do to let him dig entrenchments.

Oh, and I'm a bit a dunce, what is double-adjacency?

The Double Adjacency Rule (DAR) says that to bombard passing enemy ships/boats, those must move from one region adjacent to the bombarding artillery directly into another region adjacent to the bombarding artillery, thus Double Adjacency.

This is why you cannot bombard ships which just move up to --adjacent to-- a fort, but do not pass. The concept is that the ships are staying out of range. If the ships want to start an exchange of bombardment, they can set their SO Bombardment button to initiate that.

Yes. CSA ships were moving from James River to Hampton Roads to Cape Henry.

Batteries were in Fort Monroe with an active leader, without a leader or with an active leader outside the fort properly entrenched.

See above.

Oh and this is very helpful! Is there a file that scripts the rules you list (and I haven't found it) or do you just have an impressive ability for synthesis?

He's just that impressive.

Actually, we have had several discussions about this in the past (including some during beta). This is mostly from the forums I believe.

Oh, shucks guys

Aside from the long... debates, yes let's call them debates, during brain-storming and beta, I learned a lot the hard way; the School of Hard Knocks™.

The basic mechanics are coded into the engine. What can be modded are the minimum range of artillery (it used to be 5, so that gunboats couldn't bombard), and the Entrenchment Level to be able to bombard, which also used to be 5, but was deemed to be too restrictive.

The parameters can be found in ..\CW2\Settings\GameLogic.opt

Code: Select all

bmbMinEntrenchLevel   = 3     // Minimum level to reach by an artillery so that it can bombards or interdict ships& water supply   
bmbRange      = 4   // Minimum range a gun should have to bombard (both land art & ships)

[FelixZ]

<For artillery inside the fort you cannot press the Bombardment SO button, because Bombardment is automatic. But it is still subject to spotting and actually hitting passing ships.>

Button can be and was depressed at Cairo, St. Louis and Fort Pickens.

<I have no doubt of what you report. On the rivers most of the traffic is river boats, which cannot escape bombardment nearly as easily as fast ocean going ships passing Fort Monroe in coastal waters. If Pesacola(?? are you actually thinking for Fort Pickens?) bombarded passing boats, they were probably river boats too.>

Excuse me was Fort Pickens - the Ironclad Virginia. Fort Guns did fire.


<Fort Monroe is adjacent to Hampton Roads (which practically surrounds it) and James Estuary, which is up-river from Fort Monroe. So passing between the two will trigger the DAR.>

I wrote James River meant to write James Estuary. Did not trigger on three occasions. The other occasions were the CSA frigate and brig squadrons. And there was/is a highlighted bombardment button which can't be depressed like at other locations.

[Captain_Orso]

<For artillery inside the fort you cannot press the Bombardment SO button, because Bombardment is automatic. But it is still subject to spotting and actually hitting passing ships.>

Button can be and was depressed at Cairo, St. Louis and Fort Pickens.

For St Louis and Cairo I can understand that, but if the artillery is inside Fort Pickens the button should be greyed-out. It is for me. Please have another look.

<I have no doubt of what you report. On the rivers most of the traffic is river boats, which cannot escape bombardment nearly as easily as fast ocean going ships passing Fort Monroe in coastal waters. If Pesacola(?? are you actually thinking for Fort Pickens?) bombarded passing boats, they were probably river boats too.>

Excuse me was Fort Pickens - the Ironclad Virginia. Fort Guns did fire.

<Fort Monroe is adjacent to Hampton Roads (which practically surrounds it) and James Estuary, which is up-river from Fort Monroe. So passing between the two will trigger the DAR.>

I wrote James River meant to write James Estuary. Did not trigger on three occasions. The other occasions were the CSA frigate and brig squadrons. And there was/is a highlighted bombardment button which can't be depressed like at other locations.

As I said, fast ships will sneak by sometimes; actually I think it has more to do with their high evasion value. Brigs have 6, Frigates have 7 and Ironclads only have 4.

I've hit ships trying to sneak by at times, but it's not something I count on or really worry about. If the South tries to send a large number through in one fleet they will more than likely get hit I think.

[Jim-NC]

From my experience, the starting CSA ships in Richmond (Frigate and Brig Squadron) sneak past Ft. Monroe about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time, they get sunk. So they (ocean going vessels) have a chance of escaping being fired upon by Ft. Monroe. I have also seen the occasional slipping past forts of ironclads, but that is not very often.