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Kensai
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Swedes

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:39 pm

This must have been discussed in the past, but what's wrong with them? At least one of their Generals (especially one that spawns later) should be a 3-star General so they can create an army. Otherwise the CP penalties are so high they are almost useless unless the gamey "solution" of bringing an Austrian or French or Russian 3-star General to command them.

I know that in real life they were hindered in their command abilities, which is something the devs try to portray in game, but the Swedes become a liability after a while. In our MP game they have contributed to my abysmal low NM by the series of defeats they have suffered. I have tried as a maniac to retreat them, move them out of the way, undercommanded (35% penalty), undersupplied, battered. It is such a frustration.

I believe at least one of their Generals (the substitute that comes in 1757 for example) should be a 3-star so they can be effectively commanded. If you need to lower their numbers for balancing reasons it might be better than this. The inability to create an army/corps structure with them is a show stopper.
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loki100
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Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:34 am

to be honest, I leave them hiding in Stalsrund (they are at least a threat in being). Slightly gamey, but one solution is to send a Swedish commander to where they can (as an individual) join a French or Austrian army, then back. At least they will then have the bonus of being a corps-army even if out the command range of the actual army.

there's another problem which is a 'bug'/wad with the Northerner trait. This actually affects them in say Pommerania (where you'd expect them to be), but not if they end up in say Hannover (so it seems to reverse the desired effect).

In the main, my usage of them now is a threat in being. If you are lucky the Prussian player will put effort into taking them out, otherwised keep them out the way till they can link up with a French/Russian arrival in N Germany

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Baris
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Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:42 am

loki100 wrote:
there's another problem which is a 'bug'/wad with the Northerner trait. This actually affects them in say Pommerania (where you'd expect them to be), but not if they end up in say Hannover (so it seems to reverse the desired effect).


Swedish AI usually in Poznan or Silesia so it shouldn't be a problem.

------

Swedes generaly should have limited interference to battles in Pbem. They have hard geography and small number of units. I don't think there is shortage of 3-star generals in the early game. Later it is not a problem either. I think the most gamey thing in the game is the quick promotion of generals to 3-star with low seniority requirements.

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Kensai
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:04 pm

The problem in PBEM is the gamey playing of humans. It's a problem we all have come across, more or less. I don't blame my opponent for taking advantage of such a caveat, I might have done the same IF I KNEW ABOUT A SIMILAR ISSUE WITH ΤΗΕ PRUSSIANS, but I think the Swedes deserve a 3-star General, even as substitute (not at the beginning). If balancing issues arise, decrease their firepower or numbers of the Swedish troops. But this game is based on creating armies, if you don't create armies you are toast... many features don't work properly: including march on the sound of guns. The crippling NM loss virtually destroyed my ability to operate elsewhere.

The problem is serious for other reasons as well. The moment Stralsund is occupied, the Swedish reinforcement options simply don't work. Even if you select them, nobody ever comes as reinforcements. Naturally, as you don't own the Pomeranian Swedish base. So the astute Prussian General can simply go for the Swedes, defeat them summarily and then in a gamey way destroy the ability of his opponent to ever bring reinforcements. The only way to counter this (and make effective use of the Swedes in general) is to send them an Austrian or French General early on to command them, a hugely gamey and unhistorical solution...
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De_Spinoza
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Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:03 pm

I was playing Prussia in this game, and I can also state that the lack of a proper Swedish general is absolutely killing. They literally did not stand a chance, and the only way to prevent it is by being gamey and sending in an Austrian general.

Because of the NM suffered by Kensai while I hunted down his Swedes, ALL his forces began performing much worse, even though his campaigns into Hannover and Silesia were doing well.

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Durk
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Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:14 am

You may think of this as gamey, but I attach the Swedes to the Russians all the time. Swedish corps in a Russian army can't be too gamey. This happens all the time with other factions.

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Baris
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Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:53 am

It is how it was before. I think the same, it is not gamey for Pbem. There is already CP for individual units in the stack for foreign commanders. But it would be excellent in future if there would be CP for stack commander having foreign brigades.

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Kensai
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Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:29 am

The question remains, why shouldn't the Swedes be autonomous in their actions? Isn't it hugely unhistorical to have to subdue to a foreign 3-star General just to fight efficiently? As I said, if it is a balancing issue, then you can simply decrease the unit numbers or make them of lesser quality in a future patch. But no army formation means gargantuan penalties unless attempting this gamey unrealistic solution.
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Durk
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Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:00 am

Your question presented me with a challenge, why not. Why not provide the leadership? So this is the answer to my investigation.

If the Swedes are at full strength with a good local leader, they surpass what they could achieve historically. Instead of being bottled up, they could take the offensive.
Swedes were at 1/3 of nominal strength, almost the same as the 35% penalty for no leader.

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Kensai
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Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:03 pm

The problem is the abstraction in the game. If the human player goes against them right away he can defeat them quite easily before you can do anything. Since NM is global, by taking huge losses on some battles you can't possibly win as Austrian, you have the huge disadvantage elsewhere, as the low NM (and great for the easily winning Prussians) has effects all over the map.

There is no offensive issue with the Swedes as they have the "Northern" attribute and already fight with great penalties if they abandon their original territories.
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PhilThib
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Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:04 am

The solution for them would be to make them an independant, potentially non-playable faction. That would solve 99% of the issues without really altering game balance...indeed, it would even make the game more realistic and favorable for the coalition player.

ROP was designed when multi-faction play was not available. Since PON, it's possible, although a bith cumbersome. But it may be worht an expansion pack (to add with the 1740's scenario) :w00t:
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ashandresash
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Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:34 am

PhilThib wrote:The solution for them would be to make them an independant, potentially non-playable faction. That would solve 99% of the issues without really altering game balance...indeed, it would even make the game more realistic and favorable for the coalition player.

ROP was designed when multi-faction play was not available. Since PON, it's possible, although a bith cumbersome. But it may be worht an expansion pack (to add with the 1740's scenario) :w00t:


This seems a good idea indeed :)

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lodilefty
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Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:42 pm

PhilThib wrote:The solution for them would be to make them an independant, potentially non-playable faction. That would solve 99% of the issues without really altering game balance...indeed, it would even make the game more realistic and favorable for the coalition player.

ROP was designed when multi-faction play was not available. Since PON, it's possible, although a bith cumbersome. But it may be worht an expansion pack (to add with the 1740's scenario) :w00t:


ashandresash wrote:This seems a good idea indeed :)


Interesting idea, but it is not a small effort to do this!

Resources to do it must be found, via priority decision by "The Masters"
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Kensai
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Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:51 pm

That could be a solution. But I still believe that making a Swede General a 3-star, you fix everything for good. After all, they play a defensive game, out of Pomerania they should get horrible penalties anyway. :)
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marcosdahistoria
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Re: Swedes

Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:08 am

I was playing Prussia in this game, and the swedes destroyed me, so easy... I can't understand! I had more then 35.000 men in Berlin and they atacked me with only 18.000. I lost 3966 men and 121 horses. They lost only 1801 men and 243 horses. I stopped the play. I can't save Berlin.

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arsan
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Re: Swedes

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:13 pm

marcosdahistoria wrote:I was playing Prussia in this game, and the swedes destroyed me, so easy... I can't understand! I had more then 35.000 men in Berlin and they atacked me with only 18.000. I lost 3966 men and 121 horses. They lost only 1801 men and 243 horses. I stopped the play. I can't save Berlin.


That's strange... the Swedes usually have poor leaders and lack of command points, so they use to fight poorly.
Maybe you have your 35.000 men divided, some inside the city and some outside?
The ones inside the city will not help at all. They are shown on the combat report but don't really fight at all. The same may happen if you have your forces organized in different stacks in the same region. Maybe the Swedes just engaged one of the stacks separetly
I usually only left inside the city a small garrison (one unit or two, specially if they are blocked in place) anf put the rest outside on just one stack.

Regards!

marcosdahistoria
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Re: Swedes

Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:02 pm

Thank you, Avatar! I think you described the situation very well. I did not have time to organize my army in the area. I just had time to send little columns in that direction.

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