Army maintenance

[Drax]

Greetings fellow PONers ^^

A few days ago I was looking for details on Army/Navy maintenance cost per turn, and couldn't find any answer on the forums or documentation, so on Pocus kind direction, I looked directly in game files and here is the formula I think is correct. I'm sharing this in case some one else wonders too.

Maintenance cost per turn = Unit initial cost x 0.2%

This is lowered by 10% per level of entrenchment.

The curious or modder can find these informations in Settings/GameLogic.opt file, line 305-307:
milPercUnitUpkeep = 1 // % of each Unit cost that will be paid as "maintenance" upkeep
milMilitaryUnitUpkeepGobalCoeffH = 20 // then multiplied further by this coefficient (x0.2)
milTrenchReductionUpkeep = 10 // each trench level reduces by 10% upkeep cost (garrisoning & wintering)

[Peissner]

Thanks, that's good to know.

[sagji]

That means that you are replacing the unit every 500 turns, so the average service term is 21 years (or more with entrenchment)

[Kensai]

Seems reasonable. I like it.

[sagji]

To me it sounds way too high.
If the average age on joining is 19, then the average age on discharge would be 40 - and that ignores the fact that lifespans of more than 60 were uncommon.

[SonOfAGhost]

To me it sounds way too high.
If the average age on joining is 19, then the average age on discharge would be 40 - and that ignores the fact that lifespans of more than 60 were uncommon.

19 would be rather old to be joining, particularly in the early portion of the game.

There's a reason child labour laws are something the player can implement. The very word teenager, and the notion that secondary education was normal (rather than exceptional), didn't come into being until the 1950s. 12-16 would have been a normal recruitment age range for most of the game's period.

Lifelong service was also normal. Death or disability were much more common than retirement (and not just in the military)

[sagji]

19 would be rather old to be joining, particularly in the early portion of the game.

There's a reason child labour laws are something the player can implement. The very word teenager, and the notion that secondary education was normal (rather than exceptional), didn't come into being until the 1950s. 12-16 would have been a normal recruitment age range for most of the game's period.

Lifelong service was also normal. Death or disability were much more common than retirement (and not just in the military)

in 1908 the British army had a minimum age of 18 (17 for territorial) and normal service was 7 years plus 5 national reserve.
in 1870 the normal term of service was reformed from 21 years ('life') to 12 years of which part was served in the reserve. The maximum term of service remained at 21 years.


ADDED: These are the durations for those that complete the full term, the average service time will be lower as some soldiers would be discharged early for a variety of reasons (such as death, or health)

[yellow ribbon]

hm... depends of what you call military time.

Prussian landwehr was drafted on basis that you cannot do duty in normal military service and age reached from 17-40, but is was 1813 back then

1867 - 1918, § 2 Reichsverfassung April 1871, it was

- three years military service
- two years reserve
- about five years first line Landwehr (including a couple of maneuvers in a year)
- about three years second line Landwehr (one maneuver in a year)

this duty ended with the end of the months March in the 39. year of the total life

then there was a third line of reserves for manpower:

LANDSTURM: where you stayed until the age of 60. (without maneuvers)

******************+

however i find the calculation misleading, since attrition of harsh weather includes losses of men too, and this again is reduced by structures with 10% i believe to recall...

so, no streamlined calculation therein

[Pocus]

in the army up to 60? oh my god...

[yellow ribbon]

no me lad,

active military time:

first army

then

reserve

[color="Red"]then [/color]

remaining as a reserve with yearly military training

landwehr 1

then

landwehr 2


[color="Red"]then[/color]

remaining as ad hoc forces of reserve without training

as Landsturm (men older than 39)

think about peasants with far more than 10 years military education and field training

even from the Landwehr and Landsturm, regiments were raised in 1913/1914 for frontline duty

i know,, must be hard for a french to know this

[Drax]

I don't see any relationship between length of term and maintenance. There could be one with unit experience though.

However I'd like to see the game getting rid entirely of the replacement system in favour of a massively more expensive army maintenance, that in turn would reduce army numbers. More classic but much more light to the gameplay and I don't see much benefit of the current system on either historicity or strategic simulation.
A much better way imho, would be to have a permanent replacement system globalized via army maintenance, with extraordinary decrees you can take as government to accelerate a unit regeneration, at a cost of experience, troops, officers, ammunitions and goods. That would be closer to reality and easier to manage for the gamer and the program, and speed up end turn resolution ,(i suppose).
I intent to mod that, if i can find how

[yellow ribbon]

unfortunately Experience is gained by mere existence already...


the relationship of lenght of tour of duty and units costs could only be simulated if there would be a difference between the countries regarding the time and costs units would mobilized to combat readiness after declaration of war, thats what reserve status in real life is for.

to shorten the time of getting organized troops.


"However I'd like to see the game getting rid entirely of the replacement system in favour of a massively more expensive army maintenance, that in turn would reduce army numbers. More classic but much more light to the gameplay and I don't see much benefit of the current system on either historicity or strategic simulation."

I agree, the system is too exploitable but units power for Ai is scripted for wars anyway.
For the side of the player, i wait for the mod of McNaughton, really sounds god to alter it with country specific force pool and availability...

for the costs... it is not much of an argument to prioritize it. We had the famous discussion about keeping units supplied it is no problem for experienced players.
we know all that manpowers algorithm is exploitable for you know, keep it low enough and build early.
the rest is nilled by the long time horizon, no really strategical shortage will happen but in case of events costs (like minus 300, while maximum is 350)

the units COST itself, well, disregarding the manpower, a developed economy of the original playable countries shall not see any problems to finance it but if you look to much for happiness (taxation) and run out of state funds.

Even trippled costs or the additional reforms you propose would not outweight the problem of manpower. most countries could affort the goods, but lack the manpower
for the actual (building) costs are much higher, relative to maintenance already, thus building up the major restriction, in the given system there will be few effect, even if i totally support your point Drax.

[Drax]

Thanks for your input Yellow ribbon, it's appreciated ^^