Okay, I've got a weird situation. I've got Stonewall with a huge stack in Paducah (Union owned) facing off against Grant. I keep "winning" battles, but can't clear him out. I've tried putting on Orange (Red) settings, but even though I win, he's still there next turn. I don't want to put on Red assault, because there's a fort there that I don't want to assault directly.
So how the heck do I get rid of him??? I outnumber him CP wise by about 4:1 now, would've though last turn a no-brainer for routing him out.
Kinda frustrating, TBH.
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
- Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Is Grant and his force in the city? Probably not because you'd probably have no combat at all, or almost none.
Does Paducah have a depot? If so, it will take much longer to get him out.
If Grant wants to stay, he will set to Defend and Avoid Combat and will avoid you almost all of the time, especially if his force is very mobile.
One problem you have is that being in the region, you cannot intercept him. One solution, if you don't mind sacrificing a cav for it, is to have a cav in a neighboring region and then drag the cav onto Grant's stack and set them to attack. This will cause them to hunt out Grant's force and attack it and usually in doing so, will bind him long enough for Jackson to get his forces into the battle too. When this happens you will not only do some damage, but also cause Grant's force to lose cohesion, which will make it that much harder for him to escape the next time.
Another solution, if you have two or more corps to use, is to send one in with interception, while cycling the other out. This will give you the advantage of always intercepting Grant and give the corp coming out part of a turn to recover cohesion while keeping the pressure up on Grant and not allowing him to recover cohesion. If all you want to do is to capture the region, this will work, but it takes a lot of resources to do and you will have to watch out for reinforcements coming along to smack at you while you are busy with Grant.
But basically if Grant wants to sacrifice his force to buy time or 'thinks' you might give up, he can hold out a while by just avoiding combat.
Regardless of what he is doing or which strategy you decide to use, blockading Paducah is important so that no supplies get in as Grant will probably be using a lot of them to keep going. As soon as his supplies dry up, his cohesion will drop like a rock and he can either run or die.
Does Paducah have a depot? If so, it will take much longer to get him out.
If Grant wants to stay, he will set to Defend and Avoid Combat and will avoid you almost all of the time, especially if his force is very mobile.
One problem you have is that being in the region, you cannot intercept him. One solution, if you don't mind sacrificing a cav for it, is to have a cav in a neighboring region and then drag the cav onto Grant's stack and set them to attack. This will cause them to hunt out Grant's force and attack it and usually in doing so, will bind him long enough for Jackson to get his forces into the battle too. When this happens you will not only do some damage, but also cause Grant's force to lose cohesion, which will make it that much harder for him to escape the next time.
Another solution, if you have two or more corps to use, is to send one in with interception, while cycling the other out. This will give you the advantage of always intercepting Grant and give the corp coming out part of a turn to recover cohesion while keeping the pressure up on Grant and not allowing him to recover cohesion. If all you want to do is to capture the region, this will work, but it takes a lot of resources to do and you will have to watch out for reinforcements coming along to smack at you while you are busy with Grant.
But basically if Grant wants to sacrifice his force to buy time or 'thinks' you might give up, he can hold out a while by just avoiding combat.
Regardless of what he is doing or which strategy you decide to use, blockading Paducah is important so that no supplies get in as Grant will probably be using a lot of them to keep going. As soon as his supplies dry up, his cohesion will drop like a rock and he can either run or die.
No, Grant is out in the open. Just checked, last attack I made was 1250 CP vs 260, roughly 5:1. He routed, taking a crapload of additional hits, but he's still there in Paducah! This is now the 3rd round of pretty overwhelming odds, and I keep winning, but it's taking its toll on my forces, and the real problem is that I can't get any MC over the region. Just not real sure what else to do... and seems kinda borked that it's working this way.
I don't think he's evading combat, as I'm getting combat results, but he's still there.
I did have the port blockaded until this turn, but now he' s run me off with a bigger fleet, not much chance of re-closing the harbor now.
He's got a small token force in the fort, I don't really care about that as I can keep him bottled up in siege, and have plenty of forces to defend from an amphib assault. But I need to at least get MC going through the region, and just can't seem to find a way to do it.
Help needed with ideas. I'm pretty committed at this point, don't want to just drop the attack (nor do I think I should have to).
I don't think he's evading combat, as I'm getting combat results, but he's still there.
I did have the port blockaded until this turn, but now he' s run me off with a bigger fleet, not much chance of re-closing the harbor now.
He's got a small token force in the fort, I don't really care about that as I can keep him bottled up in siege, and have plenty of forces to defend from an amphib assault. But I need to at least get MC going through the region, and just can't seem to find a way to do it.
Help needed with ideas. I'm pretty committed at this point, don't want to just drop the attack (nor do I think I should have to).
Good idea, Citizen X, I'll try looking at the replay later today.
He had a retreat path over the Mississippi to Cairo, IL, that had a Union fleet in it, so I don't think that's the issue. I think what's happening is this... Grant was injured (probably very seriously) about 4 turns ago in a majorly botched landing at Forts Henry & Donelson where an entire Union corps was wiped out, he then appeared the next turn at Paducah, so I'm assuming he's wounded and fixed for a period of time. I think that what's occurring is he's leading the stack and keeping it fixed. So I keep causing him to rout or retreat, but he has nowhere he can go.
Is there any way I can order an attack to just continue as long as there is opposition? How does the river attack work? I have a Corps SW of Paducah, I'll have to look, but I think I could possibly send them on river assault to Paducah instead of overland... would this cause the "no retreat at any cost" attack that just continues until all opposition is dead? I know that's risky, but I'm at a point where I need to either figure something out this turn, or swallow the bullet and think about retreating. I'm getting nervous now that the port is open that he'll get reinforcements in (I don't see anything imminently arriving, but possibily late this turn or next).
To clarify the situation, I have the following set up:
1) In Paducah, both Jackson and Grant are standing off against each other. I have about 800 CP under Jackson (around 60% cohesion), while Grant has only about 160 CP under his command now, with another 40 CP in the fort. The region is 100% Union controlled. Intel shows a 39 CP and 49 CP brigade en route to Paducah, they should be there in about 2-3 days. Intel doesn't show any other major concentrations of troops, and I've blown rail lines pretty extensively in IL... I feel fairly secure thsi turn, next turn may be a different story though.
2) In the two regions south of Paducah, I have a Corps under Walker with about 750 CP, ready to serve as reinforcements. This force might potentially be able to do a amphib assault, I'd have to look at hte possibilities... I'd only want to do this if it definitely causes the continual attack until all defenders are destroyed. In the other region south of Paducha, I have Lee leading the Army, with about 400 CP under his command. Both of these have 3 day arrivals to reinforce Paducah, so they should be able to reinforce rather easily.
So worst case I think my attack would be about 1800 CP vs 250 CP. But I seem to be having trouble actually destroying the force and getting MC in the region. This is a do-or-die turn, and I'm on the fence about even this one.
He had a retreat path over the Mississippi to Cairo, IL, that had a Union fleet in it, so I don't think that's the issue. I think what's happening is this... Grant was injured (probably very seriously) about 4 turns ago in a majorly botched landing at Forts Henry & Donelson where an entire Union corps was wiped out, he then appeared the next turn at Paducah, so I'm assuming he's wounded and fixed for a period of time. I think that what's occurring is he's leading the stack and keeping it fixed. So I keep causing him to rout or retreat, but he has nowhere he can go.
Is there any way I can order an attack to just continue as long as there is opposition? How does the river attack work? I have a Corps SW of Paducah, I'll have to look, but I think I could possibly send them on river assault to Paducah instead of overland... would this cause the "no retreat at any cost" attack that just continues until all opposition is dead? I know that's risky, but I'm at a point where I need to either figure something out this turn, or swallow the bullet and think about retreating. I'm getting nervous now that the port is open that he'll get reinforcements in (I don't see anything imminently arriving, but possibily late this turn or next).
To clarify the situation, I have the following set up:
1) In Paducah, both Jackson and Grant are standing off against each other. I have about 800 CP under Jackson (around 60% cohesion), while Grant has only about 160 CP under his command now, with another 40 CP in the fort. The region is 100% Union controlled. Intel shows a 39 CP and 49 CP brigade en route to Paducah, they should be there in about 2-3 days. Intel doesn't show any other major concentrations of troops, and I've blown rail lines pretty extensively in IL... I feel fairly secure thsi turn, next turn may be a different story though.
2) In the two regions south of Paducah, I have a Corps under Walker with about 750 CP, ready to serve as reinforcements. This force might potentially be able to do a amphib assault, I'd have to look at hte possibilities... I'd only want to do this if it definitely causes the continual attack until all defenders are destroyed. In the other region south of Paducha, I have Lee leading the Army, with about 400 CP under his command. Both of these have 3 day arrivals to reinforce Paducah, so they should be able to reinforce rather easily.
So worst case I think my attack would be about 1800 CP vs 250 CP. But I seem to be having trouble actually destroying the force and getting MC in the region. This is a do-or-die turn, and I'm on the fence about even this one.
Also, you could load the AI's save file and look. 
Sometimes a stack will start retreat, not get to the next region before turn end (thus appearing to you to be in starting region), then AI cancels retreat during orders.....
Sometimes a stack will start retreat, not get to the next region before turn end (thus appearing to you to be in starting region), then AI cancels retreat during orders.....
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
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Forget the amphibious landing, go straight in.
I am puzzled why with such a disparity in force you have not gone red/red. Even if the fort's walls are still standing, between Jackson's and Walker's corps you should have well more than enough to crush them, as well as his piecemeal reinforcements.
Also, you have not said why you need to get out of this area quickly. I presume that there are other places where you need these forces in the field, but in that case, why did you not go red/red earlier?
Man up and take the fight to those boys!
I am puzzled why with such a disparity in force you have not gone red/red. Even if the fort's walls are still standing, between Jackson's and Walker's corps you should have well more than enough to crush them, as well as his piecemeal reinforcements.
Also, you have not said why you need to get out of this area quickly. I presume that there are other places where you need these forces in the field, but in that case, why did you not go red/red earlier?
Man up and take the fight to those boys!
My name is Aaron.
Knight of New Hampshire
Knight of New Hampshire
Will RED/RED make them continually attack though? It was my understanding that it would not, in which case, it doesn't really help me out to do it. I don't care if he sticks forces in the fort, I'll be happy enough to starve them out in a siege.
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part of how the rules work, but if RED/RED will work, then maybe it's worth doing. I just need some way to route him out before he can get reinforcements in (which could very well happen in a turn or so).
I have't done this prior, because he actually had a pretty good force in place that's been gradually dwindled down. Originally that stack was about 800 CP strong, took several turns to get it down to its current state. I most certainly did *NOT* want to go RED/RED with a potentially he'd stick 800 CP in that fort!
Maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part of how the rules work, but if RED/RED will work, then maybe it's worth doing. I just need some way to route him out before he can get reinforcements in (which could very well happen in a turn or so).
I have't done this prior, because he actually had a pretty good force in place that's been gradually dwindled down. Originally that stack was about 800 CP strong, took several turns to get it down to its current state. I most certainly did *NOT* want to go RED/RED with a potentially he'd stick 800 CP in that fort!
Mechanically, it will lower Jackson's desire to pull off of his attack. You will fight longer than if you were just on orange (etc.).
In the future, you may find it is worth risking the additional casualties earlier to a) free up your stacks, and b) eliminate him when his retreat options are limited by your boats. Your idea of him being locked in place is interesting, and may be at the root of his not budging.
To the general topic of attack/hold at all costs: Lots of folks here are very wary of using it, and I don't know why. I use them both quite often and to great effect. My position is that if I do not want the target region, why would I attack or defend it? And if I do want it, why would I limit my assault or defense?
Ultimately, with the limited forces you have as the CSA, strategic mobility often matters more than losses (within reason). I completely agree with your not assaulting initially, but once he's been softened, you just have to crush him and move on.
In the future, you may find it is worth risking the additional casualties earlier to a) free up your stacks, and b) eliminate him when his retreat options are limited by your boats. Your idea of him being locked in place is interesting, and may be at the root of his not budging.
To the general topic of attack/hold at all costs: Lots of folks here are very wary of using it, and I don't know why. I use them both quite often and to great effect. My position is that if I do not want the target region, why would I attack or defend it? And if I do want it, why would I limit my assault or defense?
Ultimately, with the limited forces you have as the CSA, strategic mobility often matters more than losses (within reason). I completely agree with your not assaulting initially, but once he's been softened, you just have to crush him and move on.
My name is Aaron.
Knight of New Hampshire
Knight of New Hampshire
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Captain_Orso
- Posts: 5766
- Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
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Congratulation 
In know how satisfying that is.
One note, if Grant were wounded and locked in Paducah at the beginning of hostilities in the McCracken region he would immediately be unlocked as soon as units with which he is stacked are attacked. In all the battles that I've seen, even if a leader is not stacked with units per a given order (if he's your leader, you actually physically place him in a stack) he appears in the OOB (Order of Battle) in the Battle Results Display. I will have to assume that the leader is then taking part in the battle and for the 'unlocking attacked units rule' would then be unlocked.
The only time that I know of where stacking with locked units plays a role is if the stack might retreat before battle because of the disparity of forces. In this case the stack cannot retreat before battle.
I'm not sure if stacking with units that are restricted to a region is different (the only units that I can think of at the moment with this characteristic are militia that get raised by events with the tool-tip saying 'this unit will not leave the region' - all the other units with movement restrictions are locked, and unlock on being attacked).
I've had long drawn-out battles where I couldn't get a grip on some defending force that just kept slipping though my fingers each turn. It's a real PITA, especially if you know that if you don't continue dogging them, they will disappear in your hinterland somewhere, find enough supplies to keep their decimated force going and recover their cohesion to come back and haunt you a couple of turns later.
In know how satisfying that is.
One note, if Grant were wounded and locked in Paducah at the beginning of hostilities in the McCracken region he would immediately be unlocked as soon as units with which he is stacked are attacked. In all the battles that I've seen, even if a leader is not stacked with units per a given order (if he's your leader, you actually physically place him in a stack) he appears in the OOB (Order of Battle) in the Battle Results Display. I will have to assume that the leader is then taking part in the battle and for the 'unlocking attacked units rule' would then be unlocked.
The only time that I know of where stacking with locked units plays a role is if the stack might retreat before battle because of the disparity of forces. In this case the stack cannot retreat before battle.
I'm not sure if stacking with units that are restricted to a region is different (the only units that I can think of at the moment with this characteristic are militia that get raised by events with the tool-tip saying 'this unit will not leave the region' - all the other units with movement restrictions are locked, and unlock on being attacked).
I've had long drawn-out battles where I couldn't get a grip on some defending force that just kept slipping though my fingers each turn. It's a real PITA, especially if you know that if you don't continue dogging them, they will disappear in your hinterland somewhere, find enough supplies to keep their decimated force going and recover their cohesion to come back and haunt you a couple of turns later.
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