I looked at the manual...

[hgilmer]

I was wondering. I saw a screenshot of the scenarios. No WW1? I'm just curious.

This isn't a deal breaker if no WW1 for me due to the pricepoint that was discussed. And I may have missed it or the screenshot may not have been entirely accurate, especially since the names of the campaigns didn't seem to be what they might be called eventually.

Can anyone elaborate on whether there is a dedicated WW1 campaign?

Thank you.

[Franciscus]

Yes, to wet even further our appetite, how about saying which scenarios will be available ?

[PhilThib]

The game will come with the Grand Campaign, plus scenarios on 1857 Sepoy Rebellion, 1859 Risorgimento, 1899 Boer War and 1904 Russo-Japanese War.

A 1898 Spanish-American war scenario will be also avialable for those who pre-order the game...

Other scenarios will come later as DLCs or expansion packs

[Fouche]

Hello and thank you for the comment on scenarios. So no World War One or ACW..or Franco-Prussian War as I have read elsewhere? That is ok (though I was looking forward for one on the Franco-Prussian War :crying . Anyway, I would assume that maybe these will be forthcoming as expansions. Can't wait till the game is released for Pre-order!

[OneArmedMexican]

A 1898 Spanish-American war scenario will be also avialable for those who pre-order the game...

Other scenarios will come later as DLCs or expansion packs

You got to be kidding me.

Pre-order bonus? - Developpers usually claim this is a way to reward their loyal customers. Unfortunately, more often than not it is a way to trick customers to "buy the cat in the bag". All too often they realize afterwards that the game was incredible buggy at release and that they should better have waited.

DLC? - If I want something piecemeal, I buy legos or a puzzle. I get an allergic reaction when I hear the word dlc. Why? Usually dlc is overprized in relation to the price of the game itself as well as in relation to the amount of new content it delivers. If PoN needs to generate more money than demand a higher price in the first place. I would be willing to pay it. What I don't want, is enter the world of microtransactions. It is a highly annoying place!

I have a lot of trust in AGEOD, but right now the alarm bells are ringing. Usually the next step after dlc and pre-order bonuses is a deteriorating long term support for released games. Oh wait, that might already be happening seeing that RoP has been waiting for a new patch for months. And let's not even start to talk about RUS which actually seems to be getting worse.

Please reconsider this step! AGEOD games usually get great if the community is willing to help them along otherwise they remain bug-ridden provisoria (take a look at NCP, RoP and RUS). But will we be equally willing to help if AGEODs image changes due to a changed business model? If you ask your customers for money over and over again, they will ultimately get a lot less patient for you to deliver a working product!

Please excuse this indignant post. But I expect you will get a lot more like it and probably a lot angrier ones, once the first pre-release dlc is announced while the PoN is still badly bugged.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[vaalen]

You got to be kidding me.

Pre-order bonus? - Developpers usually claim this is a way to reward their loyal customers. Unfortunately, more often than not it is a way to trick customers to "buy the cat in the bag". All too often they realize afterwards that the game was incredible buggy at release and that they should better have waited.

DLC? - If I want something piecemeal, I buy legos or a puzzle. I get an allergic reaction when I hear the word dlc. Why? Usually dlc is overprized in relation to the price of the game itself as well as in relation to the amount of new content it delivers. If PoN needs to generate more money than demand a higher price in the first place. I would be willing to pay it. What I don't want, is enter the world of microtransactions. It is a highly annoying place!

I have a lot of trust in AGEOD, but right now the alarm bells are ringing. Usually the next step after dlc and pre-order bonuses is a deteriorating long term support for released games. Oh wait, that might already be happening seeing that RoP has been waiting for a new patch for months. And let's not even start to talk about RUS which actually seems to be getting worse.

Please reconsider this step! AGEOD games usually get great if the community is willing to help them along otherwise they remain bug-ridden provisoria (take a look at NCP, RoP and RUS). But will we be equally willing to help if AGEODs image changes due to a changed business model? If you ask your customers for money over and over again, they will ultimately get a lot less patient for you to deliver a working product!

Please excuse this indignant post. But I expect you will get a lot more like it and probably a lot angrier ones, once the first pre-release dlc is announced while the PoN is still badly bugged.

I do not think that is Ageod's decision. Due to the reality of who actually owns Ageod and makes these decisions, I think you should address your concerns to Paradox. I do not expect anyone from Ageod to comment on this.

I would also suggest that you remember that the twenty dollar price is absurdly cheap for a game like this. If they want to add some scenarios in an expansion, or even DLC, I will buy it without objection, since the initial price is so cheap.

I might mention that I am very grateful to Paradox for making it possible for Ageod to continue. While I too would like to see all the scenarios at release, I can live with this.

I also do not expect Pride of Nations do be badly bugged. It has been in development a very long time, and I expect it to work.

[Mirandasucre]

i agree with you...no problem for me....as i want to play the 1898 scenario i 'm going to pre order it....( and no problem to do not have ACW and WW1 scenarios, there are other games for these.... but, so sad franco prussian is not included ....i wish also a USA 1866 post civil war scenario....it would be great to have the grand campaign also starting around 1865 , in 1885 and 1905)..from when can it be pre ordered ?.....and from where ? only from the official web page ? ageod page ? paradox page ? gamers gate page ....?

[Mirandasucre]

sad the crimean war is not included neither...anyway...

[OneArmedMexican]

The programmer/designers deserve to be compensated for their time since they are doing it for a living. If they keep on working on something after it comes out adding additional content, they deserve to be compensated for the additional time also. AGEod has demonstrated a continuing level of support way above most other companies.

I couldn't agree more. I actually think the price for PoN is currently too low. Like I wrote, I would be willing to pay more. What I don't want is buying a game piecemeal. So please Gray, rise above the obvious counter-critique: "Don't buy it".

I am not critizising the support AGEOD has provided in the past, either. Their long term support and their communication with their fans is exceptional. Lately the support part seems to be slipping a bit though (see RoP).

And that was exactly the point of my post. I am worried about the future. We may be at the beginning of a slippery slope as far as AGEOD is concerned: DLC and pre-order bonus are indicators of a changed business model. Long term support on the other hand, might not have a place in that new model.

Besides the long term support has always been dependant on a loyal community. People like you who sacrificed countless hours improving a game they loved. I am not sure people will show the same level of dedication if AGEOD is perceived as greedy (a common perception when a game is sold in pieces via DLC). I for one won't spent time writing bug reports or making new graphic sets like I did for RoP and RUS.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[McNaughton]

I couldn't agree more. I actually think the price for PoN is currently too low. Like I wrote, I would be willing to pay more. What I don't want is buying a game piecemeal. So please Gray, rise above the obvious counter-critique: "Don't buy it".

I am not critizising the support AGEOD has provided in the past, either. Their long term support and their communication with their fans is exceptional. Lately the support part seems to be slipping a bit though (see RoP).

And that was exactly the point of my post. I am worried about the future. We may be at the beginning of a slippery slope as far as AGEOD is concerned: DLC and pre-order bonus are indicators of a changed business model. Long term support on the other hand, might not have a place in that new model.

Besides the long term support has always been dependant on a loyal community. People like you who sacrificed countless hours improving a game they loved. I am not sure people will show the same level of dedication if AGEOD is perceived as greedy (a common perception when a game is sold in pieces via DLC). I for one won't spent time writing bug reports or making new graphic sets like I did for RoP and RUS.

If you counted up all of the time I have spent on Pride of Nations in the past few years working on it you could probably account for 6 months (24 hours a day, 7 days a week) of time devoted to the game. In working with AGEOD these years I have seen a group of people totally dedicated to the products they were making, putting a lot of care and attention to detail that I have not seen in many other communities.

I do not think I have worked in a single area where so many of my (and other's) concerns and ides of the irks and problems of grand strategy games were listened to and really interesting alternatives implemented (it is amazing how they solved some of the major issues of other strategy games, such as technology, knowledge of history affecting gameplay, country blobbing, etc.). Working on Pride of Nations has clearly shown me that AGEOD has met the fine balance between releasing a product (i.e., actually getting something made!) and the desire to make the perfect product (i.e., work on something forever because there is always another feature to add).

The creation and development of scenarios is such a minor aspect of this game. The time and effort devoted to Pride of Nation's functionality makes the development of scenarios to be just a side attraction.

DLCs for Pride of Nations, unlike most games, will not be to make the game finished (i.e., to add functions and actions that are needed to play the game), but to further enhance the game (extras and bonus'). You can see each and every scenario you so desire, as they are all hidden within the 1600 turn Grand Campaign. It is not as if there needs to be a feature developed, or an entire module, but rather the time and devotion spent to create and fine tune a specific scenario for addition (orders of battles, replacements, reinforcements, balance playtesting, etc.).

So, I guess yes, AGEOD could release Pride of Nations with more scenarios, but, you have to realize that it will sit upon a finished, and functioning game, while it spends months to develop extra scenarios. Or, it could release a functioning game, with a variety of scenarios, then work on fine tuning these other scenarios to be released when they are ready.

PS. Instead of working on the ACW and FPW scenarios (two of my current focusses, as well as playtesting the game) I am spending some time commenting here on some boards

[hgilmer]

I also saw a campaign called the 1870 franco-prussian war.

Are you saying neither will be there at the beginning?

I'm seriously not trying to be a smartazz, but did you guys forget why a lot of people said they wanted to buy it?

[McNaughton]

I also saw a campaign called the 1870 franco-prussian war.

Are you saying neither will be there at the beginning?

I'm seriously not trying to be a smartazz, but did you guys forget why a lot of people said they wanted to buy it?

I believed they wanted to buy it because it was going to be a good game, with a clever take upon the era. I do not think that someone will be irrational to decide not to buy a game because a particular scenario was not put out on release, but rather a bit later. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[hgilmer]

I believed they wanted to buy it because it was going to be a good game, with a clever take upon the era. I do not think that someone will be irrational to decide not to buy a game because a particular scenario was not put out on release, but rather a bit later. Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I think acting like we want a buggy game with a bunch of scenarios is going a little off the farm. I'm not saying you don't have to charge for it. I'm not saying I expect the game to be bad. If I expected Aegod to make bad games, I probably wouldn't have 3 of their releases and seriously thought about getting the Russian Civil War period game, which I still might get.

And maybe the people you describe want exactly what you are providing and that's great. All I'm saying was it was mentioned several times and no one led us to believe any differently, there would be certain campaigns with a different set of rules that governed those particular games. If you'd like I'll find those posts and reply to them and have them come back to the top.

No one is saying people should not be paid for their work. And frankly, that comment, not necessarily made by you, was disappointing. I think this forum is one of the best behaved group of people on forums I have ever seen.

I AM disappointed. I wasn't necessarily going to be disappointed if WW1 was not there because I realize that might be a pretty tough undertaking (although we were told there would be a WW1 campaign, probably). But, taking out WW1, Franco-Prussian War, and the ACW, to me guts the whole project. These conflicts shaped the world.

That obviously is my opinion. I think a few might feel the same. If it comes out later, that's great. I'm sure you will get a lot of posts when it is released about how very good a game it is. Because it is quite obvious the programmers and testers love what they are doing.

[DooberGuy]

I'm okay with DLC when they're adding new content like campaigns. After all, it lets me pick and choose which campaigns I want and ignore the others. I'm not really sure an ACW scenario is necessary since AACW covers that pretty much perfectly, but WW1 would be cool.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Hohenlohe]

FYI, and to all others concerned about the "slow down" in patch work for the various already released games:

Due to circumstances beyond AGEOD's control, the volunteer individual who was coordinating the patches was suddenly hospitalized late last year. Rather than start all over again with the patch work and not even knowing where to resume the work, it has been necessary to just freeze progress until he returns. This does not indicate poor support but just unfortunate circumstances soon to be hopefully rectified with his return.

AND before any of you ask... In this particular instance, he had the ONLY full copies of the current status newly updated files to work with. It might have been possible for me to reverse engineer his most recent AACW installer but the other games were out of the question.

The fact that one important fellow of the support team is handicapped either way is very sad but excusable and it is simply Life. But I would suggest you all that you should make some changes due to this fact in future so that someone else can handle the case. It would be useful to send backup-copies of such files regularly to either Pocus or/and another fellow of your team so that nothing else can hamper your good work.

Just my six pence...

heartful greetings to Lodilefty which I assume is that good fellow...

Hohenlohe aka MikeFrank(Pdoxforum)

[caranorn]

Phil, what I'm more concerned about is the question of learning scenarios. All you listed were essentially campaign start points I believe. Will there be smaller scenarios (possibly not global) for new players to learn the game, but also interesting enough to play (so not just tutorials)?

Not a fan of DLC, but I guess I'll live with that...

[Franciscus]

Please let me point your attention to this dev diary from 3/2010:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?296-PON-dev-diary-3

and to these screenshots from 10/2009 (!):
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=15568

It's clear that not including at release time scenarios like WW1, ACW or FPW it's not a design (Phils) decision but a marketing/administrative decision (Paradox), radically different to the previous Ageod policy.

I think unfortunate that those scenarios are not to be included at release time, for several reasons: scenarios give added value to a game, and help tremeduously in "getting to" the game (I do not forget the countless times I played some AACW scenarios - specially Shiloh - before embarking on a full campaign). Plus, with a 1600 turn full grand campaign that probably noone will ever finish, juicy scenarios would be a strong selling point and a main part of the actual gaming experience.

I would much prefer to pay more at release time to have the scenarios that were announced more than a year before than to pay "cheap" and have to buy expansion packs later, but I will have to live with it...


(and please Gray, do not tell me to not buy it )

[wertheimer]

So.... where can I pre-order. I have looked around a bit on Paradox and AGEOD pages and have not seen where I can to that.

Thanks

Pat W

[Ashbery76]

I would pay for a shorter campaign DLC ala monthly or bi monthly turns.

[PhilThib]

Another reason we did not include some scenarios was the lack of time to properly test them...releasing an untested scenario won't do any good, and some, like the WW1 one, are real monsters...

In the works, we also have shorter campaigns: we should have a 1875 Campaign, and a 1895/1900 one at the very least

[DON]

I am normally not a fan of the trend to downloadable content, thinking that too often it is a simple mechanism to make people pay for items that should have been included in the original purchase.

However, I have no problem in regard to DLC in regard to this game, for the following reasons:

1. The price of the original game is only $20.00. For a game of this quality I would expect to pay at least $40.00 to $50.00.

2. The game covers a vast slice of modern history. The possible conflicts are in the hundreds. If AGEOD can supply me over the years with well researched and well tested scenarios and campaigns at a moderate price, that is a feature for me and not a problem.

3. I want this game to focus on colonial conflicts in its initial release. World War I is a vastly different beast and I would imagine that any realistic simulation of that conflict would take a fair amount of special events and rules modifications and I can understand waiting upon it and other complex conflicts.

4. I assume that AGEOD will take input on future DLC and I like that. Herewith are some scenarios I would like to see as DLCs in the future:

1. The wars of liberation from Spain in South America.

2. The War of the Pacific in South America.

3. The Mexican War between the US and Mexico.

4. A hypothetical invasion by Russia of India in circa 1880. Cossacks down the Khyber!

5. The great Taiping Rebellion in China.

6. Kitchener's campaign to conquer the Sudan.

7. The French conquest of Algeria.

8. The Russian conquest of the Caucasus.

9. The Crimean War.

10. The American Civil War.

I trust AGEOD. I am confident that they will deliver a first rate product in the initial release, that they will continue to work on it for years after the initial release to improve it, and that I will get good value for the DLCs I choose to purchase.

[DON]

Perhaps we could even have DLC on the British conquest of Tubbyland!


http://the-american-catholic.com/2011/05/22/the-teletubby-war/

[PhilThib]

Some of the above are already in...for instance, the Taiping war is in the game (you just don't 'live' it right now because China is not playable in version 1.00)... some others too...

But a few in your list are before the game's period and would require too many DB changes...

[Lasse]

The game will come with the Grand Campaign, plus scenarios on 1857 Sepoy Rebellion, 1859 Risorgimento, 1899 Boer War and 1904 Russo-Japanese War.

A 1898 Spanish-American war scenario will be also avialable for those who pre-order the game...

Other scenarios will come later as DLCs or expansion packs

But preordered from where? I've preordered from Amazon - was that a mistake?

[PhilThib]

Sorry, don't know yet, this is handle by the mother company up in Sweden...will ask tomorrow

[Lasse]

Thanks for the quick reply - don't you ever take a day off?

[Gray_Lensman]

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