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Franciscus
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Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:43 pm

Flop wrote:I humbly think that my suggestion is best. :D

If all unconverted rails in occupied regions containing troops were to automatically convert after the movement phase, that would mean:

1) Conversion takes place after - not during - movement, so you will only be able to convert rails in regions you control.

2) Your units would now be able to convert rails without having to move.

3) Germany would have a chance to take Paris in 1914, since it can update its supply lines each turn, this way.

There are a few drawbacks, compared to the system used now:

1) any unit or stack would only be able to convert rails in one province per turn (the one it ends the turn in), meaning that more units would probably have to be used for that purpose. I don't think this would be crippling for Germany in 1914, though.

2) You would not be able to use the rails until the following turn (still better than not being able to use them until the interphase imo).

This approach could be combined with the interphase approach. That way you'd only have to convert enough rails to keep your armies supplied, and could wait for the interphase to have the rest of the rails converted automatically, thereby saving you units for other purposes.

Anyway, I suppose I may have overlooked something. What do you think?


I agree ! :thumbsup:

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calvinus
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Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:09 pm

Ok, I can do as follows:

1) Conversion takes place only if no battle has taken place. I will try to do the conversion is performed at the end of the battle, in case of victory, but I'm not sure it can be done... I have to study the code before. ;)

2) Units convert automatically the enemy rails at the end of each Interphase.

3) Enemy rails in controlled areas are automatically converted at the end of each Interphase.

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Johnny Canuck
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:20 am

I like this idea (presuming you meant 'each turn' instead of 'each Interphase' in #2 ;) ), but have a few thoughts:

1. With this scheme, I would suggest removing the ability of cavalry corps to convert rails. This reflects the fact that the existing system already penalizes cavalry corps in rail conversion (costing more MP), & this change would ensure players have to leave behind more valuable infantry corps if he wants the conversion before the Interphase.

2. While I think this scheme works for the Western Front, what about the Eastern Front, where it was harder to convert the Russian rails due to different gauges?

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calvinus
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:32 am

Johnny Canuck wrote:I like this idea (presuming you meant 'each turn' instead of 'each Interphase' in #2 ;) ), but have a few thoughts:


Well, I'm still struggled between the "each turn" and the "each interphase" (3 turns)... :bonk:

Johnny Canuck wrote:1. With this scheme, I would suggest removing the ability of cavalry corps to convert rails. This reflects the fact that the existing system already penalizes cavalry corps in rail conversion (costing more MP), & this change would ensure players have to leave behind more valuable infantry corps if he wants the conversion before the Interphase.


And what if in case of a stack where both Inf and Cav are present?? :wacko:

Johnny Canuck wrote:2. While I think this scheme works for the Western Front, what about the Eastern Front, where it was harder to convert the Russian rails due to different gauges?


For Russia, we already have the additional MP cost.

Anthropoid
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Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:14 pm

The more I think about this the more complicated it seems.

I like to play in army-by-army mode, the most complicated movement rules, because I think that that is one of the most innovative and exciting aspects of the game engine. I hope to see more of this kind of device in future games . . .

Lets say I'm Germany and I use I and II Army to attack Longwy in early August and achieve a breakthrough to attack the next one south (Montmedy?). I set I Army as main army activate it, coordinate II and attack. I win pushing French out of Longwy and get my breakthrough attack into the one south of Longwy (Montmedy?). Lets just say for example that I win that one too, so I have just pushed deep into French territory in just a week or two of time. Indeed, if you consider that I still have several other armies that can follow up on these initial moves by I and II Army, maybe the Longwy-Montmedy push really only took up a week or less.

I'm not certain about this, but given the whole "home before the leaves fall" six-week victory plan, I'd think that the German plan would have been that the rails in those initially occupied territories would be pretty much immediately converted?

Maybe it would be too fast, but shouldn't it be possible for I and II Army to now convert the rails in Longwy and Montmedy BEFORE the end of the Early August turn? Thus allowing units that (in army-by-army mode) move AFTER them (a couple days after) during the same turn to benefit from the conversions?

The current system I think would allow this, although it doesn't work quite right in allowing rails to convert even when the combat to take control of a hex is not won.

Unfortunately, changing it so that conversions cannot happen by attacking armies would eliminate this "primitive" blitzkrieg (PB) possibility in army-by-army mode. It had not dawned on me but it is necessary that conversion be possible by armies moving INTO an enemy controlled hex in order for this PB dynamic to actually work.

Thus, Calvinus, I understand what you are getting at when you say

1) Conversion takes place only if no battle has taken place. I will try to do the conversion is performed at the end of the battle, in case of victory, but I'm not sure it can be done... I have to study the code before.


I hope you can get it to work this way:

1. If a friendly unit is in a friendly converted-rail hex or friendly non-rail hex and is adjacent to hexes with unconverted rails, and has enough MPs to move into one of those adjacent hexes plus the conversion cost, then the convert rails button may be turned on prior to moving. If the destination hex with unconverted rails is friendly controlled, then the rail conversion happens immediately as the unit moves into the destination hex.

If a unit with rail conversion turned on moves into an enemy controlled hex with unconverted rails, rail conversion can happen under two conditions: (a) if the destination hex is unoccupied, or (b) if friendly units win the ensuing combat for the hex, and the unit with convert rails turned on ends the movement and combat with sufficient remaining MPs (1 or 2) to carryout the rail conversion.

2. If a unit starts its turn in a friendly controlled but unconverted-rail hex and has at least 1 or 2 MP, then the convert button can be clicked. In this case, when convert is clicked, the hex immediately converts, and the unit loses the conversion cost MPs. Any remaining MPs can then be used for movement and/or conversion in adjacent hexes.

3. All controlled, but unconverted hexes are converted automatically at interphase, i.e., without any unit actions and even without any units occupying the unconverted hexes.

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Johnny Canuck
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:25 am

calvinus wrote:And what if in case of a stack where both Inf and Cav are present?? :wacko:


Would it be possible to just check whether one Inf Corps is present? If yes - convert; if no - don't convert. Thus the presence of Cav would not be factored into the equation.


calvinus wrote:For Russia, we already have the additional MP cost.


But with the system you've outlined it (unless I'm missing something), MP no longer factors into the equation - mere presence is necessary for end-of-turn conversion, and control for Interphase conversion. Perhaps the 'end-of-turn conversion if units present' should only apply to the Western Front, & on the Eastern Front you have to wait for the Interphase?

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calvinus
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:09 am

Johnny Canuck wrote:Would it be possible to just check whether one Inf Corps is present? If yes - convert; if no - don't convert. Thus the presence of Cav would not be factored into the equation.


Yes, surely so. :thumbsup:

Johnny Canuck wrote:But with the system you've outlined it (unless I'm missing something), MP no longer factors into the equation - mere presence is necessary for end-of-turn conversion, and control for Interphase conversion. Perhaps the 'end-of-turn conversion if units present' should only apply to the Western Front, & on the Eastern Front you have to wait for the Interphase?


Yes, indeed the automatic conversion makes a nonsense the Russian rails differences... :blink:

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Franciscus
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:16 pm

That's because indeed in the west it was NOT necessary to make rail conversions, but in the east yes...

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Aphrodite Mae
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I agree

Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:59 pm

Anthropoid wrote:I hope you can get it to work this way:

1. If a friendly unit is in a friendly converted-rail hex or friendly non-rail hex and is adjacent to hexes with unconverted rails, and has enough MPs to move into one of those adjacent hexes plus the conversion cost, then the convert rails button may be turned on prior to moving. If the destination hex with unconverted rails is friendly controlled, then the rail conversion happens immediately as the unit moves into the destination hex.

If a unit with rail conversion turned on moves into an enemy controlled hex with unconverted rails, rail conversion can happen under two conditions: (a) if the destination hex is unoccupied, or (b) if friendly units win the ensuing combat for the hex, and the unit with convert rails turned on ends the movement and combat with sufficient remaining MPs (1 or 2) to carryout the rail conversion.

2. If a unit starts its turn in a friendly controlled but unconverted-rail hex and has at least 1 or 2 MP, then the convert button can be clicked. In this case, when convert is clicked, the hex immediately converts, and the unit loses the conversion cost MPs. Any remaining MPs can then be used for movement and/or conversion in adjacent hexes.

3. All controlled, but unconverted hexes are converted automatically at interphase, i.e., without any unit actions and even without any units occupying the unconverted hexes.


+1 This seems not only plausible, but sensible.

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calvinus
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:09 pm

Ok, I've done as follows:

- Enemy rail tracks are now converted by corps located in conquered areas, at the end of each Military Phase
- Enemy rail tracks are now automatically converted in conquered areas (no need of corps garrisoning) at the end of each Interphase
- Conversion of enemy rails can now be performed only if corps are stacked
- Conversion of enemy rails no more takes place in case of battle

vonRocko
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Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:41 pm

calvinus wrote:- Conversion of enemy rails can now be performed only if corps are stacked


Calvinus, can you explain what this line means?
Thanks

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calvinus
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:58 am

It means that stacks composed only by air units or artilleries cannot convert rails. I'm going to write better the sentence in the change log, sorry.

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dougbush93
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Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:35 pm

calvinus wrote:Ok, I've done as follows:

- Enemy rail tracks are now converted by corps located in conquered areas, at the end of each Military Phase
- Enemy rail tracks are now automatically converted in conquered areas (no need of corps garrisoning) at the end of each Interphase
- Conversion of enemy rails can now be performed only if corps are stacked
- Conversion of enemy rails no more takes place in case of battle


Great work. Will make things a lot easier on players. :thumbsup:

Doug

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