Regarding the option to buy regular units

[TiFlo]

Hi,

Having played BoA in its time, I now strongly enjoy WIA and all the improvements that came with it

I must admit, though, that I am having trouble understanding one of its features.
Among the (great) choice of options the player get to "buy" with his/her victory points, some of them seem to me out of place. This only goes for the FIW scenarii, as I mainly play this war, but applies to both the French and the British.

On one side, you can decide whether to form supply trains, raise militia, recruit Indians, or build batteries at strategic sites. And above all, you can build boats on the lakes, which I beleive is one of the best things that happened to this game.
All those actions look historicaly credible. In term of manpower, one can assume the colonial administration had enough power to get itself a few more militias or Indian warriors. As for the rest, there is nothing wrong either. Supply trains could be simply built from the material at hand and filled up with the supply war stocks of both colonies. There was also sufficient artillerie at hand to divert some pieces to key garrisons. After all, Québec had hundreds of pieces for its defense in 1759, only the shortage of munitions prevented the French from using them efficiently. And I'm not even talking about the aborted attempt on the city by Lévis the next year. Furthermore, the building of boats on the lakes was seen by both parties as one of the keys to carry on the war, and they had enough knowledgeable carpenters and material. Hence the huge fleets, in respect to the era, cruising in the Champlain valley and on Lake Ontario.

Now, on the other side, I'm not sure to see how the option to raise more regulars (replacements for the French, full units for the British) is justified. As I understand it, the player is in the role of the commander in chief of the army in North America, thus leading the war with what means he/her has at hand. Nothing more. If the player is supposed to be left with what the good will of his/her King may want to send him/her, I don't think it should be possible to receive such good reinforcements simply assuming your emissaries in Europe do such a great job at selling your case. In 1759, Bougainville got sent back to Canada with plenty of medals for everyone, but a handfull of crappy muskets and raw recruits. And the British player already get so many more troops as the war drags on, that I don't even see a need for it in that case.

What do you think?

Thanks,
TiFlo

[lodilefty]

You certainly make a good point....

The design thinking was that by attaining success [earning EP], the Theater Commander gains enough influence 'at home' to divert troops from the 'European festivities'. It is abstract, but gives some tangible way for 'success to build on success'.

...perhaps fewer 'regenerations' of these options [to allow only one or two purchases]

...we can test this as a separate mod first, to see the effects on play balance...

[Carnium]

I agree that these are all good points, but on the other hand I kinda like this system as it adds a lot to the variety of the game play.This game has no "production" system like in AACW and it is nice to have some options for new units and supply.
On the other hand it could be nice to simulate the British control of the sea with the fact that French reinforcements would be available in France and not "teleported" directly to the Canada.This way the French side would "feel" the British presence on the sea as it would be forces to transport new units to the Battlefield and also build more transport ships.
How does this sound to you ?

[TiFlo]

Mmm...

Well, I understand the need for diversified gameplay, but I really don't see it fit in the 18th century colonial North America theatre. The whole point of those 3 main wars the game covers is that the commanders had to do with the little they were given, and no more. Hence the real challenge of taking care of your few regulars as if your own childs. I spend most of my time, especially when playing as the American or the French, manoeuvring until being certain my boys from Ol' Europe will have the fight handy. Militias, Indians, I can spare. Regulars, I can't. And I feel that allowing the player to order, almost at will, pairs of full strength highlander regiments (even more so considering that almost no unit was sent fully manned in America, or anywhere else), takes away that main characteristic of a colonial war. Playing the FIW, by 1758, it's just becoming a spamfest of British regulars pouring into Halifax harbour. And I'm only exaggerating so much

Now, maybe there is some middle ground that can be reached so as to satisfy everyone. Carnium's idea sounds good, except that then means the player also has to control naval production, which is as much of a stretch as controlling what gets sent to the colonies.

More suggestions ?

[lodilefty]

I agree that these are all good points, but on the other hand I kinda like this system as it adds a lot to the variety of the game play.This game has no "production" system like in AACW and it is nice to have some options for new units and supply.
On the other hand it could be nice to simulate the British control of the sea with the fact that French reinforcements would be available in France and not "teleported" directly to the Canada.This way the French side would "feel" the British presence on the sea as it would be forces to transport new units to the Battlefield and also build more transport ships.
How does this sound to you ?

Interesting, but we'd need to take a hard look at the AI with this:

I've seen fleets sail away to blockade the European forts, never to be seen again
The AI has difficulty organizing fleet transport like this, almost as much as doing Amphibious operations.

If these issues are 'fixable' [or not happening], its worth a try.
..but the British troops would arrive the same way, so they can arrive with low cohesion due to the movement

[Carnium]

Interesting, but we'd need to take a hard look at the AI with this:

I've seen fleets sail away to blockade the European forts, never to be seen again
The AI has difficulty organizing fleet transport like this, almost as much as doing Amphibious operations.

If these issues are 'fixable' [or not happening], its worth a try.
..but the British troops would arrive the same way, so they can arrive with low cohesion due to the movement

True.I have reported such things too.Must be something connected to "resupply" for the AI and the calculation of the fleet radius.
But as TiFlo,who has a good knowledge of this period said, maybe the amount of the regulars you are able to buy/train should be greatly reduced in favor of the militias and natives.This way we would be forced to train our troops and use regulars in the way TiFlo suggested.A little problem could be the lack of the leaders with training ability.

[arsan]

How many regulars you can train? As the British on the AWI i don't remember more than 4 or so per year.
If historically this is too much (i have no idea about it :bonk maybe some can be changed to Provincials or for more regular replacements (they are always scarce for what i remember).
But i like the idea of being able to "buy" some unit from time to time.

The shipping unit from Europe idea is nice but should be "human only" iMHO. The AI has already enough things to think about

[Carnium]

How about making regulars really expensive and rare ?
With this you will have to earn a lot EP to buy them AND you will only have the option to buy them for a couple of times.
How does this sound ?

[TiFlo]

Carnium and Arsan's idea sounds wise and a good middle ground. It makes more sense to have companies of fresh recruits sent to the colonies to fill up the depleted ranks of veteran regular units. And it is also perfectly historicaly correct too. I don't have it at hand right now, but the French campaign logs for the FIW mention the arrivals of each new boat in Québec, every year from 1754-55 to 1759, which happened quite often despite the blocus, and on board of which it wouldn't be unusual to see a few new soldiers to be incorporated into the French regular regiments.

Still, this wouldn't prevent the bleeding caused by successive campaigning, that led to Montcalm's ill fated decision to draft militiamen into his regular regiments in 1759.

Which leads me to Lévis, and the training ability he and a few other officers are blessed with in the game. I understand Lévis earn his (as an ingame ability I mean) after his success at taking over Montcalm's policy and the ensuing victory at Ste-Foy in 1760. While Carnium seems concerned about the lack of training officers in case there need be more reliance on provincials because of the removal of regular units from the buying pool, I believe they are already much more valuable than one could have ever dreamed of at that time. Taking Lévis' example, I use him a garrison leader in Montréal from the time he lands in Canada to as late as I can spare him front line action, and by 1759 I've usually trained an average of 5-6 militias to colonial regulars a year. They are great for garrison duty and even to beef up main fighting forces, but I think this is already too much regarding what happened in reality.
What Lévis accomplished during the winter between 1759 and 1760, was possible only because the army was off duty and so officers and NCO's were available to take enough care in the training of ragtag militias into a proper fighting force. Even more, only those that had already seen active duty on previous campaigns were deemed fit to be drilled (those actually amount to no more that a tenth of the entire militia force of Canada, I'm quoting from the top of my head, René Chartrand and Louise Dechêne).



So, to my point.
It seems to me that replacing the buying of full regular regiments by that of regular replacements would be a good move. It would remove the temptation for the player to act as if regulars were disposable material, while avoiding the obvious choices taken by Athena to strenghten her armies. And make them awfully pricey too. For the sake of me sticking to my guns like a stubborn old f*rt

[Carnium]

So, to my point.
It seems to me that replacing the buying of full regular regiments by that of regular replacements would be a good move. It would remove the temptation for the player to act as if regulars were disposable material, while avoiding the obvious choices taken by Athena to strenghten her armies. And make them awfully pricey too. For the sake of me sticking to my guns like a stubborn old f*rt

Excellent.To make it short - give more militia replacements and ability to buy them instead of reguals which should be expensive and rare.
So instead of buying an army, you must train one
Right ?

[lodilefty]

Excellent discussion.

How about:

= Only 2 chances total to buy regulars [includes Highlanders, etc.]
= Higher cost to buy these regulars
= More frequent availability to buy Militia replacements
= Less frequent opportunity to buy Regular replacements

[Carnium]

Excellent discussion.

How about:

= Only 2 chances total to buy regulars [includes Highlanders, etc.]
= Higher cost to buy these regulars
= More frequent availability to buy Militia replacements
= Less frequent opportunity to buy Regular replacements

Loved it
You mean a chance to buy these regulars only once per year in the spring ?
Any chance for more native replacements or new units too as units under Tecumseh units are getting any?

[lodilefty]

Loved it
You mean a chance to buy these regulars only once per year in the spring ?
Any chance for more native replacements or new units too as units under Tecumseh units are getting any?

Almost anything is possible

Let me finalize the current 'cycle' of the Community Mod, then we can get onto these ideas...

[Carnium]

Almost anything is possible

Let me finalize the current 'cycle' of the Community Mod, then we can get onto these ideas...

Agreed
I will play test the War of 1812 from the US side today and will let you know how your changes work.

[lodilefty]

Agreed
I will play test the War of 1812 from the US side today and will let you know how your changes work.

More changes to 1812 pending....

[arsan]

Excellent discussion.

How about:

= Only 2 chances total to buy regulars [includes Highlanders, etc.]
= Higher cost to buy these regulars
= More frequent availability to buy Militia replacements
= Less frequent opportunity to buy Regular replacements

Just a comment about the 1755 campaign (the one i'm playing now.

As the british: 80% up of my units use regular replacements: provincials (you get a TON of this) and british regulars use this.
I get little use for the militias replacements. No need for more, really

So i guess the buy options should be tweaked to each scenario/side.

I agree with the reduction and price increase of new units buys (maybe just one/two per year or so) but not with the decrease of regular replacements.

On the 1755 at least they are very scarce already.
I would change some new regular units buys by new regular replacement buys, increasing the regular replacement buys oportunities.

Regards!

[lodilefty]

Just a comment about the 1755 campaign (the one i'm playing now.

As the british: 80% up of my units use regular replacements: provincials (you get a TON of this) and british regulars use this.
I get little use for the militias replacements. No need for more, really

So i guess the buy options should be tweaked to each scenario/side.

I agree with the reduction and price increase of new units buys (maybe just one/two per year or so) but not with the decrease of regular replacements.

On the 1755 at least they are very scarce already.
I would change some new regular units buys by new regular replacement buys, increasing the regular replacement buys oportunities.

Regards!

ah, I forgot the Provos...
good point! will do

[lodilefty]

Hmmm, changing the EP costs requires major 'LocalString' surgery.
How about we try fewer available, and very low probability to be available
[for Highlanders, regular Troops, Dragoons]

Also, fewer 'repeats' for the artillery purchase options?

[TiFlo]

Wow, you're already at it!

Those options in your lats post lodilefty sound good. Men as well as artillery.

So, to recap what's been reached:
- fewer full regiments available for purchase
- probability of that option appearing lowered
(- fewer artillery units available for purchase)
- the replacement pool dynamics remain as is

Did I miss anything?

[lodilefty]

Wow, you're already at it!

Those options in your lats post lodilefty sound good. Men as well as artillery.

So, to recap what's been reached:
- fewer full regiments available for purchase
- probability of that option appearing lowered
(- fewer artillery units available for purchase)
- the replacement pool dynamics remain as is

Did I miss anything?

That's it!

I also found that the French were buying French Militia replacements, but there is no unit in the game that would use them!!!! Changed to Canadian Militia replacements

..and confirmed [always double-check ] that a Training Officer [or at least 1 star of experience] will upgrade Canadian Militia to Troupes de Marine. Urban Militia will NOT upgrade...

[Carnium]

This is getting better and better.
Oh Lord give me days with 48 hours... and hurry please

[arsan]

Just my two cents but...
I will not just remove buy options (new regulars units) but also add something in its place, so you can actually spend your hard earned EP's on something.
Something like more replacements
As each new buyable regular unit removed equals 4 full elements "out of game" i think at least a couple of new replacement elements available for purchase should be added instead for each removed new unit.
If not in the end players will end with too much EP's they can't use and quite a lot less units on map (something that can also affect scenario balance too).
Cheers!

[lodilefty]

Just my two cents but...
I will not just remove buy options (new regulars units) but also add something in its place, so you can actually spend your hard earned EP's on something.
Something like more replacements
As each new buyable regular unit removed equals 4 full elements "out of game" i think at least a couple of new replacement elements available for purchase should be added instead for each removed new unit.
If not in the end players will end with too much EP's they can't use and quite a lot less units on map (something that can also affect scenario balance too).
Cheers!

Already did
Opportunity to buy regular replacements more often, more probable, and unlimited

[DerAppapy]

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