Rifled Artillery Versus Third System Brick and Masonry Forts

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

Yes, but the final regiment you have is only sized 750 men (15 hits)

The extra cost, I want to show is the REPLACEMENT cost due to the REFILLING to the 100o men size (5 extra hits)

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

The conversion as now it is never changes the hits in the unit.I feel this is ok as it is.

If a militia unit with 9 hits left (due to combat, dessertion,weather...)converts to a conscript the final unit is left with also 9 hits. I.e. no free hits by conversion.

The WS extra cost I REFER is paid via LINE INFANTRY REPLACEMENTS.

Also, I remember the cost of INFANTRY REPLACEMENTS is 2 WS!!! (This values changes from 1 to 2 WS sometime in final 61)

So a 9 hits converted militia needs 11 hits replaced (55% of a replacement) at a cost of 2 WS -> 1,1 WS (some random involved, perhaps only 0,55 WS)

I must say also the militia "trick" is in fact not seen as a trick for me. It just allows to build your manpower without paying NOW your WS, but paying a bit less WS a bit LATER. Meanwhile, your troops fight not ok.

I myself told you also sometime ago about the reduction cost in WS of a full MILITIA + Bronze guns divison versus a full REGULARS trained one. However... I feel it even reallistic, although, combined with other questions, it can hurt to turn into big CSA (AND USA) army SIZES.

I strongly BELIEVE huge army SIZES is more due to USA being VERY VERY inactive until 62. WHO is playing as USA and assaulting Manassas versus a trenched ANV? Just no big combats arise until mid 62.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

My personal estimate is a replacement is exhausted after replacing 2 full units, so 40 hits on average.

A line inf costs 12$ 10c & 2WS

So 5 hits is 1/8th of a full replacement

EDIT- 1,5 $; 1,25c; 0,25 WS

Thats were my previous calculation TRIED to come from (perhaps some error involved)

If I add to this the 7$ 7c BASIC cost

AND the 1 WS EXTRA cost proposed ->

A conscript via conversion costs
8,5 $ - 8,25c -1,25 WS

[Clovis]

The conversion as now it is never changes the hits in the unit.I feel this is ok as it is.

If a militia unit with 9 hits left (due to combat, dessertion,weather...)converts to a conscript the final unit is left with also 9 hits. I.e. no free hits by conversion.

The WS extra cost I REFER is paid via LINE INFANTRY REPLACEMENTS.

Also, I remember the cost of INFANTRY REPLACEMENTS is 2 WS!!! (This values changes from 1 to 2 WS sometime in final 61)

So a 9 hits converted militia needs 11 hits replaced (55% of a replacement) at a cost of 2 WS -> 1,1 WS (some random involved, perhaps only 0,55 WS)

I must say also the militia "trick" is in fact not seen as a trick for me. It just allows to build your manpower without paying NOW your WS, but paying a bit less WS a bit LATER. Meanwhile, your troops fight not ok.

I myself told you also sometime ago about the reduction cost in WS of a full MILITIA + Bronze guns divison versus a full REGULARS trained one. However... I feel it even reallistic, although, combined with other questions, it can hurt to turn into big CSA (AND USA) army SIZES.

I strongly BELIEVE huge army SIZES is more due to USA being VERY VERY inactive until 62. WHO is playing as USA and assaulting Manassas versus a trenched ANV? Just no big combats arise until mid 62.

You're wrong:

- WSU saved at sart can be spent in industrialization or naval transport, resulting in more WSU later and so buying more regular replacement

- by outproducing militias, a part of these units will not take offensive and so will not suffer hits. In the end, they will become fulle regular units without spending a WSU.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

As another idea I was thinking about some days ago I forgot to post, I strongly propose reducing HITS of MILITIA to 14 instead of 15----

This can reduce considerably the TRICK. I am able to build 250 militia units in the first Year or so. This apparently small reduction can reduce 250 HITS the real army size (nearly a division)

It seems futile but Really is a good correction. It adds also to upgrade the WS cost via REPLACEMENT from 0,25 to 0,33.

Also, increasing to 8 Conscript points AND raising to 16 hits can be a similar solution, but 2 changes and less effective in WS terms.

[Coregonas]

Oh no more data to tell

The final result seems good in reducing the final army size...

Just say-> the prize paid on this change is:
It is going to be CHEAPER in WS terms to buy directly Early INF (1 WS) or Conscript (1 WS) than militia (1 WS + 5 hits replacement WS cost-my estimated 1,25).

[Coregonas]

You're wrong:

- WSU saved at sart can be spent in industrialization or naval transport, resulting in more WSU later and so buying more regular replacement

- by outproducing militias, a part of these units will not take offensive and so will not suffer hits. In the end, they will become fulle regular units without spending a WSU.

1. Agree
2. Yes... just the replacement cost of the 5 hits (0,25 WS my estimate)

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jarkko]

If I was omnoptent, I would disallow recruiting militia all together, and instead come with events that spawned militia under some conditions (early in the war, enemy hostile troops in the state or neighbouring state, state is raided (railroads/depots blown up by hostiles), etc. In addition, I would make militia even weaker outside their own state, but even stronger inside their own state. Then again, I am not omnipotent

Applying a 1WS cost to recruiting militia does sound a bit steep to me. It certainly will remove the militia spam, altough it will still be the desired unit type when time is of essence. However, the 1WS cost is high enough to make it possible to defend against raiders early in the war, thus boosting the effectiveness of the very ahistorical massive raiding early in the war.

Maybe it would be possible to multiply all WS income and expenditure by 10, and so that "incremental" WS costs could be applied. Under such a system a consrcipt would cost 10WS while a militia would cost 5WS -> would be enough to stop large-scale militia spamming, but low enough to actually make it possible to garrison cities against raiders.


Other than that I do like what hear of aryamans result with his fort-mod I'd test the mod myself too, but my religion prohibits the usage of mods...

[aryaman]

I would like to remind the historical facts and what units represent in the game, because people is confusing Militia with Volunteers
Historically there were basically 3 different forces, the Regular Army, very small, the Provisional Army, the one that fought the War, and the different Militia forces. The Provisional CSA Army (not sure about the name for Union) was composed of volunteers and, since April 1862, from conscripted men. The Militia forces were under command of the States and were composed of volunteers that mustered with their own arms and equipment.
Nos, in the game, there are a number of different units and models resulting a bit confusing. We have.
State Militia: they represent true militia, they show up by event and they are usually locked
Volunteers this is what people here calls Militia, and they are called that in the game, but the name of the unit and the model is Volunteers, and they should represent that, they train up to conscript and line eventually.
Conscripts these models are part of the already made up brigades, but frankly I am not sure what they represent.
Infantry early Line infantry with smoothbore muskets, these models are part of the already made up brigades, they techup to infantry late
Infantry lateLine infantry with rifled muskets, these models are part of the already made up brigades
IMO what is really superfluous here is the made up brigades, we could have a much more simple system in which you recruit Volunteer regiments, and they trainup and techup to the superior unit types.

[Clovis]

I would like to remind the historical facts and what units represent in the game, because people is confusing Militia with Volunteers
Historically there were basically 3 different forces, the Regular Army, very small, the Provisional Army, the one that fought the War, and the different Militia forces. The Provisional CSA Army (not sure about the name for Union) was composed of volunteers and, since April 1862, from conscripted men. The Militia forces were under command of the States and were composed of volunteers that mustered with their own arms and equipment.
Nos, in the game, there are a number of different units and models resulting a bit confusing. We have.
State Militia: they represent true militia, they show up by event and they are usually locked
Volunteers this is what people here calls Militia, and they are called that in the game, but the name of the unit and the model is Volunteers, and they should represent that, they train up to conscript and line eventually.
Conscripts these models are part of the already made up brigades, but frankly I am not sure what they represent.
Infantry early Line infantry with smoothbore muskets, these models are part of the already made up brigades, they techup to infantry late
Infantry lateLine infantry with rifled muskets, these models are part of the already made up brigades
IMO what is really superfluous here is the made up brigades, we could have a much more simple system in which you recruit Volunteer regiments, and they trainup and techup to the superior unit types.

I'm just about to reach the opposite point of view: Volunteers should be removed. Your solution would create a new level of micromanagement in AACW, which would be bad. Then your solution isn't even historical: volunteer were not so rarely equipped with rifles ( and so WSU are needed) and grouped from the first weeks in Brigades and even "divisions".

I would rather see the current system as a gameplay design choice: produce low quality infantry or better equipped one. Unfortunatly, this choice has opened a "gamey" alternative we have to squash.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[77NY]

I seem to be getting an ever-increasing number of militia replacements that I never bought. I am assuming this is related to the militia => line upgrades.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[Clovis]

but the current game design does not allow for such a choice, at least not that I'm aware of, hence, though not perfect, adding the cost of 1 WSu to the starting cost of the Militia/Volunteer models is the next easiest solution to the spamming problem.

or limiting it by an arbitrary maximum by turn (SVF one solution)

[Major Tom]

I seem to be getting an ever-increasing number of militia replacements that I never bought. I am assuming this is related to the militia => line upgrades.

Has anyone else noticed this?

From May-November 1861, each side gets a set number of free replacements added to their replacement pool, especially lots of militia. You should factor this into your troop buying decisions in the first year of the April 1861 campaign.

The info on this is in the Docs folder of the game directory, but here it is anyway:

USA 1861 Free Replacement Companies

TURN...........LINE...MIL...CAV
Early May..........0......0......0
Late May...........0......0......0
Early June.........1......6......0
Late June..........0......0......0
Early July..........0......0......0
Late July...........1......4......0
Early August......2......4......0
Late August......0......0......0
Early Sept.........2......4......0
Late Sept.........0......0......0
Early Oct..........2......4......0
Late Oct..........0......0......0
Early Nov..........2......4......0
TOTAL............10.....26.....0

CSA 1861 Free Replacement Companies

TURN...........LINE...MIL...CAV
Early May..........6......6......3
Late May..........5......5......2
Early June.........4......4......2
Late June..........4......4......2
Early July..........4......4......2
Late July...........3......3......1
Early August......3......3......1
Late August.......0......2......1
Early Sept.........0......4......1
TOTAL............29.....35....15

You'll notice CSA gets a lot more freebies, and they start getting them earlier, plus they get free cavalry which the USA does not.

[77NY]

Thanks -- good to know. I'm relieved that it isn't a bug or at least not a very serious one. I will look at the docs.

The timetable doesn't seem to tell the whole story, though b/c I have 78. Maybe some of the events messages also involve adding to the pool?

[Major Tom]

Thanks -- good to know. I'm relieved that it isn't a bug or at least not a very serious one. I will look at the docs.

The timetable doesn't seem to tell the whole story, though b/c I have 78. Maybe some of the events messages also involve adding to the pool?

You have 78 militia in the pool???? Are these all free or did you buy some?

Maybe the docs don't tell the whole story, and you keep getting free militia replacements even after 1861. To be honest, I've never bothered to look at the militia pool after 1861, since it seems virtually limitless, so I've never noticed it getting if it got that high.

[77NY]

I maintain at least one of each replacement type but haven't bought militia replacements since turn 2 or 3. And then only a couple to start with.

Maybe the Kentucky mobilization events trigger some? I don't know.

But it seems odd b/c with militia upgrading to line so fast, I'll never use 78 replacements unless the CSA develops nuclear warheads.

Edit: Let me upload a screen shot later today just to verify the 78 figure before I cause a disturbance. But I know for a fact that it's much more than 26+2.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jarkko]

Would it be horribly ahistorical if militia would have the 5 HP extra when the 1WS cost is added to them? Wouldn't spend line replacements after converting, so the militia would in fact be cheaper than conscripts to buy (with no difference in WS cost it would just be the cost in gold that would be different).

[Coregonas]

2 ideas to avoid my replacement problem, to use perhaps in future improvements:

a) 1 Militia are 20 HIT units as Jarkko said yes.
Cost 7$, 10c, 1 Ws



b) Militia are 10 HIT units
Cost 3 or 4$, 5c, 0 Ws

In this second case, the replacement cost to turn to conscript would be
on average 0,5 WS (but after the moment of replacing, allowing using this WS early in industry and so on...) BUT -> Militia are going to be very weak units, more unuseful military, reducing a bit the trick?

[Big Ideas]

When you buy light arty they upgrade to field arty but don't spawn another light arty in the force pool.
When you buy the militia they upgrade to conscript infantry BUT do spawn another militia in the force pool. Thus allowing the huge militia swarms that is the real problem- rather than the costs. So if you limit the militia force pool to its normal numbers without re-spawning (like with the light arty) then only limited number of militia can be produced- and more thought would have to be given to their deployment/purchases if the player knows he has a more reasonable (though lower) force pool. The costs and upgrades could remain the same.

[aryaman]

Back to the topic of the thread for a moment

the test of my mod is continuing, and I have discovered that even at a level of protection of 30, batteries are not invulnerable, after several bombardements they do take hits, however so far I am confident that the protection level is high enough to make the Union player consider a land a ttack rather than a very costly serie of naval bombardements.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jarkko]

Gray, I think you are wrong when you assume the cost for the "extra" 5HP has not been considered. It has been considered, at least by me. The cost has been very affordable.

Now effectively (even though you explicitly told you do not want to take into account ) you are suggesting bumping up the price by 1WS, on top of the price it has had until now.

There is no way to deny it. Paying 1 WS now and then ~0.25 WS *is* more than paying 1 WS now and nothing in the future. That is quite a difference to the current situation, pay 0 WS now and ~0.25 WS later. Wether you want to talk about it, but it still remains that 1.25 > 1.00 > 0.25


I like what Corregonas suggests above, drop the militias to 10HP and the price too (and keep WS at 0). Also, in some other thread it was asked wether it would be possible to drop the range of sidearms to 1 and then militia range could be dropped to 2; would make the militia spam a much more risky business, but you'd still have a tool available to garrison places against raiders

[Clovis]

All these computations are sound and deep. But my 2c of modder: the real point is how will react the AI?

badly I fear as AI isn't equipped with algorythm fiving it the possibility to take such suble changes into account.It will create and use militia like before, whatever the value of militia...That's wy I've chosen a very conservative way in SVF to deal to eradicate the gamey tricK.