DDLAfan
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auto garrison

Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:49 am

Auto garrisons aren't auto. I went to the event folder and pulled up the file that has the info. I'm not sure what it means, but two numbers stick out: HRE 75 and PRO 50. What does that mean? Percentage chance? Percent of loyalty required?

Thanks.

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Konrad von Richtmark
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Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:39 pm

I too would like to know exactly how garrisons work. Sometimes I've lost fortified cities without a fight due to erroneously believing garrisons would spawn if an enemy would besiege them.

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Leibst
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Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:29 pm

take a look here to read a complete description of this feature.
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/AddGarrison
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elxaime
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Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:57 pm

Leibstandarte wrote:take a look here to read a complete description of this feature.
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/AddGarrison


Does it really work that way, by consuming a precious replacement every time a garrison musters? I believe these garrisons disappear once the enemy leaves the region. What is to prevent someone riding a cavalry across regions, mustering their auto-garrisons, and emptying their opponents replacement pool along the way?

I had thought auto-garrisons were just that - abstracted from forces that are assumed to already be in the region, but which are unavailable for purposes other than garrisoning. In the TYW PBEM we are in, campaign scenario, sometimes auto-garrisons muster and sometimes they don't. If they are tied to having a replacement chit, and that chit gets consumed when they muster, and then the auto-garrison disappears once the enemy leaves the region and needs re-mustering (at the cost of another replacement chit) when/if the enemy returns - something is wrong there.

Auto-garrisons seemed to work OK in CW2. In ROP, the designers went the other route, the way of allowing players to build garrison units where they wanted.

But something is off with the way auto-garrisons are working in TYW. The mechanism, if I understand it correctly, doesn't mesh well with the replacement system and it open to player exploitation. In my view, TYW should go with either the CW2 system (auto-muster without needing a replacement chit) or ROP (add garrison units to the at-start cities with player option to build more in cities they conquer).

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Ebbingford
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Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:49 pm

I don't think I have seen replacement chits getting used by creating auto garrisons in any other AGE game.
I hope it is not happening here, replacements are hard enough to get with out them being used every time a garrison is spawned.
Leibstandarte needs to comment on this.......
"Umbrellas will not be opened in the presence of the enemy." Duke of Wellington before the Battle of Waterloo, 1815.

"Top hats will not be worn in the Eighth Army" Field-Marshal Viscount Montgomery of Alamein K.G.


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arsan
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Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:53 pm

Hi!

I think Leibstandarte linked by mistake the Addgarrison feature (wich is used on WIA to my knowledge) instead of the Autogarrison feature wiki page

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/The_Auto-garrison_feature

Which is the one used on games like the AJE series and it seems on TYW too.

Regards

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Ebbingford
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Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:56 pm

Thanks for pointing that out Arsan :cool:
"Umbrellas will not be opened in the presence of the enemy." Duke of Wellington before the Battle of Waterloo, 1815.



"Top hats will not be worn in the Eighth Army" Field-Marshal Viscount Montgomery of Alamein K.G.





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elxaime
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Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:42 pm

arsan wrote:Hi!

I think Leibstandarte linked by mistake the Addgarrison feature (wich is used on WIA to my knowledge) instead of the Autogarrison feature wiki page

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/The_Auto-garrison_feature

Which is the one used on games like the AJE series and it seems on TYW too.

Regards


I went ahead and checked the link and the game file setting for TYW, which reads:

***

//Garrison

rulAutoGarrison = 2 // 0: disabled, 1: simple (permanent), 2: advanced (temporary)

***

This would indicate the advanced (temporary auto-garrison) rule option is used here, which according to the Wiki does not use up a replacement chit. So perhaps we are mistakenly assuming one is used up (which is possible) or perhaps something else is going on.

I agree it would be great if the designer could chime in to confirm exactly how auto-garrisons are supposed to be working in TYW and whether they are working as designed. There are two issues. One is whether replacement chits are being used up. The other issue is whether the auto-garrisons always appear as they should (or if some sort of additional random chance setting has been enabled).

On the second issue, whether they appear at all, perhaps the issue is the 20 point supply requirement? The advanced rule says you need 20 pts for the auto-garrison to spawn. But supply levels seem to have been set lower in TYW even for cities, so it could be that auto-garrisons are not spawning due to the 20 pt supply threshold being set too high for the TYW game design.

Baris
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:11 am

Random chance.
Open with notepad TYW_AutoGarrison in TYW includes folder. There is percent chance for regions and factions.

elxaime
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:51 am

Baris wrote:Random chance.
Open with notepad TYW_AutoGarrison in TYW includes folder. There is percent chance for regions and factions.


Thanks, that is helpful. But it still leaves questions. If you take all of the above as true then:

- there a random chance of an auto-garrison appearing; iF that percentage roll succeeds then...
- is the auto-garrison advanced rule checked to see if the other conditions, namely whether there are at least 20 supply points in the region, then applied?

In other words, someone could still make the percentage roll, but if the city does not have 20 supply points no auto-garrison spawns. I continue to wonder if the low supply levels in TYW are a factor here. For example, in Protestant Bohemia at the start of the campaign scenario, Prague is the only city with a supply level above 20.

I'd also still like it confirmed whether replacement chits play any role whatsoever.

Baris
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:20 am

High supply level helps to form two auto garrison units but not sure there is supply requirement for a single one. Replacement chits are only for permanent garrison and other units as far as I know.

elxaime
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:49 am

Baris wrote:High supply level helps to form two auto garrison units but not sure there is supply requirement for a single one. Replacement chits are only for permanent garrison and other units as far as I know.


Yes, trying to piece this out is extremely confusing. The "rulAutoGarrison in the GameRules.opt" file in TYW is set at 2, the advanced option which the Wiki states are auto-garrisons that need no replacement chit but do need 20 supply to appear. The TYW_AutoGarrison folder has the rule for the percentage roll. I assume both operate at the same time. Adding more fog, some cities, e.g. Prague, start with a permanent garrison, which means the auto-garrison rules don't apply to them (unless the original permanent garrison gets destroyed).

Unlike Rise of Prussia, neither side can build permanent garrison units, so if you don't want to take a percentage roll risk of losing a key fortress without a fight, you will need to put one of your field combat units inside the fort. I would assume - but don't know for sure - that having any unit inside a friendly fort (not just a permanent garrison) would negate the appearance of an auto-garrison.

And I am still not clear whether replacement chits are relevant or not.

The TYW manual doesn't resolve any of this (at p. 36). It says nothing about needing a certain supply level, replacement chits, whether an already existing permanent garrison makes a difference, or that there are faction specific percentage rolls that need to be made. All it says are:

"Auto-Garrisons Structures defined as having the auto-garrison feature (e.g., cities, fortifications and depots – mostly depending on scenarios) spawn an automatic garrison if enemy forces appear in the region. these range in size depending on the structure and prevent it from being taken without a fight. an enemy attack will also release Units present that are otherwise permanently fixed in position."

I realize it is traditional for AGEOD games to cultivate an aura of mystery on some game mechanics and "leave it under the hood." But TYW really needs elaboration of just how auto-garrisons work. I won't say any more, I just hope this gets clearly explained (e.g. not just to throw out a sentence or a link, but to actually take the time to explain it all in detail).

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Leibst
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:27 pm

We are using in TYW autogarrison 2, advanced. This means the autogarrison will appear with a chance of 50% per each level of city (you can change this easily just changing the 50 valor in the TYW_AutoGarrison.inc file in the includes folder.
This autogarrisons will dissapear once the enemy is away. So nothing related with replacements.
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DDLAfan
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Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:02 pm

Thanks Leibstandarte.

elxaime
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Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:51 am

Leibstandarte wrote:We are using in TYW autogarrison 2, advanced. This means the autogarrison will appear with a chance of 50% per each level of city (you can change this easily just changing the 50 valor in the TYW_AutoGarrison.inc file in the includes folder.
This autogarrisons will dissapear once the enemy is away. So nothing related with replacements.


Yes, thanks for explanation and clarification. So this is how it works:

- 50 percent chance per city level, which means 100 percent chance for all but the smallest cities
- no relation to replacements

Very smooth and elegant. Again, I think this game so far looks like one of the best AGEOD games ever. Keep polishing this gem!

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Leibst
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Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:45 am

Not exactly. 50% per level to raise an autogarrison unit. So if it is a 3 level city you have three attempts of 50% each.
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Konrad von Richtmark
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Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:26 pm

Doesn't that mean there's a little loophole for exploitation? How about just running around with a micro-unit of cavalry and keep on besieging and retreating repeatedly until you're lucky and the garrison does not spawn?

pantsukki
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Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:56 pm

Konrad von Richtmark wrote:Doesn't that mean there's a little loophole for exploitation? How about just running around with a micro-unit of cavalry and keep on besieging and retreating repeatedly until you're lucky and the garrison does not spawn?


How about just not abusing the system deliberately?

elxaime
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Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:24 am

pantsukki wrote:How about just not abusing the system deliberately?



I am also not sure whether the exploitation is possible. I think the cavalry unit would need to remain in the city to find out and the check isn't made until the start of the next turn. The opponent would see whether one of his cities had fallen without an auto-garrison spawn before entering their own move. The cavalry unit owner would not find out until the turn was run. I don't think the cavalry is told or shown along the way when it moves across whether a auto-garrison has been spawned by their actions. And if the cavalry doesn't remain in the area of the city at the end of the turn, the mechanism would reset and a new check would be made the following turn. I don't believe multiple checks are made in a single turn for each violation. I think no matter how many cavalry ride across or onto the city there is only one die roll.

Speaking to the design theory, I would assume the random chance mechanism is meant to reflect:

- that city gates were sometimes opened to invaders without a fight, either to spare the populace or out of treachery/disloyalty
- that the larger cities tended to have more respectable permanent garrisons and hence less chance of a coup de main
- that auto-garrisons tend to be mercenaries easily bought off

This is just speculation on my part. It causes me to think of some interesting chrome that might be added. To wit:

- have the percentage of loyalty affect the auto-garrison spawn chance
- add some RGD for bribery to cause a garrison that spawned to disappear and surrender the city; you could also add counter-bribe RGD

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Lynxyonok
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Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:46 am

pantsukki wrote:How about just not abusing the system deliberately?


It's not abuse. Using small units to forage and scout has been a widely used tactic in a war.

Worst case scenario cavalry can be modified in a way that it can't take cities, like Indians in WIA.

Sauro
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Re: auto garrison

Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm

So, loyalty plays no role in the Auto garrison feature?

Is it the same also for the other games?

Sauro
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Re: auto garrison

Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:42 pm

up

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Durk
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Re: auto garrison

Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:21 am

As far as my game play, 50% loyalty equals an auto garrison

Sauro
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Re: auto garrison

Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Ok, thank you

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