Superheroes wanted!

[jastaV]

Three Superheroes are available in NCP: Napoleon, Wellington, Nelson......
...that's true: Military Genious is a more proper definition!

In my opinion at least two more ones are worth to be added!

Blucher
Blucher's glory and notority have been shadowed by Wellington's ones: none the less, Wellington 'd be probably defeated at Mont St. Jane, without Blucher support......The way then, Blucher's Corps swipped away from Wavre field to strike Napoleon's right flank at Mt. St. Jane is one of the gretest manouver in military history.

It also true Blucher was a great protagonist in the 1813-1814 campaigns, while his charisma between Prussian troops was unmatched.

I examined some Boardgames were Bluecher parameters and bonus can be compared to Napoleon's ones for the period 1813-1815.



Kutuzov

The portrait of Kutuzov by Lev Tolstoj, in War and Peace, with the FeltMarshal sleeping during the war council before the battle of Austerlizt has nothing to see with a genious of strategy........
Different matter was the 1812 Campaign where Kutuzov showed a giant charismatic aura and went after a long term winning strategy....
He was probably not a genious on the field of battle but a war-fox in grand strategy: now, what's AGeod NCP but a grand strategy game?!

JastaV

[arsan]

I would prefer to reduce Nappy and Welly superpowers instead of giving away more superpowers.
They can be too much unbalancing

[jastaV]

I would prefer to reduce Nappy and Welly superpowers instead of giving away more superpowers.
They can be too much unbalancing

Changing existing ones, will have to test all existing Campaigns.

Creating new profiles for Blucher & Kutuzov we should test only few sceneries.

ANYWAY NOTE:
WE COULD CREATE NEW SUPERHERO PROFILES for Blucher & Kutuzov, adding them to the small bunch of campaign it's worth to mod!

[arsan]

Changing existing ones, will have to test all existing Campaigns.

Creating new profiles for Blucher & Kutuzov we should test only few sceneries.

ANYWAY NOTE:
WE COULD CREATE NEW SUPERHERO PROFILES for Blucher & Kutuzov, adding them to the small bunch of campaign it's worth to mod!

Hi Jatsa!

What i meant is that IMHO the military genius ability is so strong it's unbalancing.
Of course this is very subjective, but i don't think Blucher or Kutuzov deserve it. In fact i highly doubt Wellington really deserve it. He was great, but not a genius.
IMHO, even Napply should only deserve such an superpower ability when he was on his prime. Maybe until 1807... and later just at 1814 on the France campaign. That was the times when he was a real genius that could change the outcome of campaign or battle nearly just by himself.
IMHO, giving that overpowered ability to other good but not genial leaders would be questionable.
Regards!

[PhilThib]

What would be the extra abilities you would like to grant to these two guys ?

If you add these two, I would may be also suggest to add Archduke Charles to the list...

[arsan]

And a bunch of Napoleonic Marshalls
Davout or Lannes were IMHO more genial than Kutuzov or Blucher or Charles... by far...
But really, i think high stats and up to four special abilities are more than enough to represent those excellent leaders. The effects these have on game is very big.
No need to give away more "superpowers", IMHO

[jastaV]

What would be the extra abilities you would like to grant to these two guys ?

If you add these two, I would may be also suggest to add Archduke Charles to the list...

Archduke Charles was already in my thoughts!

I have not a list of abilities at hand for any leader yet: but I could try with Kutuzov and Blucher.

A trouble to consider are sources you go after to pick up abilities.
Souces are never neutral and balanced: most historians celebrated Napoleon's attitudes over-mesure, then calling up bad-luck, illness, his subordinated leaders incompetence to justify Emperor's defeats and mistakes.
That's true for Wellington too: overstimated by British historians for national pride at first........It was a very competent tactician, and....a very luck strategist at Waterloo: here without Prussian support he'd have been probably defeated!
Kuruzov is celebrated as the prototipe of the Russian national heroe by Czarist, Soviet and modern Russian historians.......
Overwhere he's depicted as a quite untalented leader, going after his retreat strategy just having not a plan to match Napoleon,..... preferring women, alcools, and hazard-games to the field........This last is often reported as regard "The Hussar Blucher".

Boadgames are for most aspects trustable when rating leaders: they have an eye looking to historical accuracy, while the other is looking to game balance!
Indeed it's definitely most easy to rate a counter, even with Napoleon's name printed over, than "rating" Napoleon action or profile!

A good mesure could be to introduce a Military Genious per any major Power......With Britain having two: Nelson and Wellington.

BTW, my personal hero should be the one suggesting all proper tips and codes for AGEOD editing/Modding.......going mad with events, now!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Rafiki]

There was a discussion some time ago about how even small adjustments in leader stats and abilities can compound into large variations, more of a problem in NCP than in other games due to the large amount of "stacking" abilities among the various generals. Any additions made should be done with the utmost care and with a significant amount of playtesting to show that they don't unbalance the scenarios.

[jastaV]

Ops.........

Addressed to Gray Lensman and Rafiki!

It's a couple of days I have installed Hamachi, and connected to AGEod Beta Network: I can see both of you and Lodilefty, but none of three is on line.

Wonder there's something wrong with my connection?
Or simply you all are off line???

[jastaV]

One possibility here is to re-work Napo and Welly, reducing the number of abilities, all positive, they have; at that same time Blucher, Charles, Kutuzov could be re-worked too without adding too much skills.

Of course I'm personally going after own Modding: indeed I'm creating new Leader profiles, without modding existing ones.


I'm also working after a bunch of new abilities:

http://www.birth-of-america2.com/ageod/forums/showthread.php?t=10125

These are mostly dedicated to event-modulated changes to Leader profiles....

JastaV

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[lodilefty]

We discussed 'super leaders' in WIA design, and concluded that it would be 'better' to creat more 'junior leaders' with traits to give flexibility.

IMHO, too much ability in one leader is not realistic. How much could they actually do themselves, vs. gather the correct subordinates for such things?

[jastaV]

We discussed 'super leaders' in WIA design, and concluded that it would be 'better' to creat more 'junior leaders' with traits to give flexibility.

IMHO, too much ability in one leader is not realistic. How much could they actually do themselves, vs. gather the correct subordinates for such things?

Suppose WIA offers a very long grandcampaign, with many years to be played.
In NCP we have short campaigns, medium lengh < 1 year: Leaders have minor chances and time to upgrade.
Also 1st and 2nd Coalition Wars, that to say the period that saw future Empire Marshal to gain experience and ranks is not part of the game.....In all the campaign available Marshal were already at the top of their career, most of times declining

[jastaV]

BTW, is there any event, and the relative code sequence, allowing to increase or decrease General raiting, (Strategic, Defensive, Offensive raitings) for a game turn lengh?

Is there the possibility to add or subtract to leader activation roll, by events for a game turn lengh?

I thanks in advance for posting, if any exists, the relative event codes.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[jastaV]

I don't believe so, instead there are various models for the same leader, which gets activated by event and/or the different scenarios. Each of these models have different ratings and/or Special abilities for the same leader.

I wouldn't know the specific event codes offhand, but if you have the ACW game, you could look in the various event files for some ideas in regard to McClellan events. Grant has different models also.

I'm practicing with events related to leader models: that not without troubles.
Guess anyway, events capable of lowering or increasing leader ratings or Activation Roll for the time-lengh of a turn could be of interest!

JastaV

[Gray_Lensman]

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[jastaV]

I don't think you'll see this implemented since it can be done by changing pre-defined Models... It's just a matter of figuring out the event related commands necessary to make it work.

Yes, that I did!
I took me a couple of days, a mess of attempts, mostly producing game errors, but at end here we are:......
I created a couple of events, based over changes of models for French HQ. One of the two HQ models has worsening to Command triggered by "negative" abilities associated to it, the other is default HQ model.
Now, in first turn, default HQ model was replaced by second "Worsened" HQ model: Armies and Corps start suffering for negative effects.
With next, (second) game turn default HQ model is replaced and all negative command effects are wiped out........Indeed I had most troubles with events notifications!

I edited it thinking of "Enemy calvary superiority on the field humpering friedly recons efficiency, so reducing HQ clear vision of the strategic picture.".

Of couse it could be to used for: " A disordered and unefficient Staff Organization reducing HQ efficiency".

or: "Disputes within command staff and contested leadership reducing HQ efficiency".

Of course it will have to work as a random-time triggerd events.

You could try it with next version of Germany 1813 hist mod!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Offworlder]

My idea is that both Blucher and Archiduke Charles should be improved a bit. At least their strategic rating could be improved (since both seemed to be quite good at leading large armies). Blucher should have his attack rating improved (after all he was called Marshal Forwards for some reason). On the other hand Archiduke Charles should have his defensive capability enhanced.

Also as another poster said, Davout's ratings should be improved. After all he was the only one of Napolean's marshals who lead large armies indipendently and successfully, from Jena-Auerstadt to the final stages of the Napoleonic wars.

On the other hand one has to watch out for the Russian generals. Unfortunately history was 'reworked' during the Communist era, in order to give greater prominence to proper Russian generals. The truth was that the Tsarist armies depended quite a lot on officers of (what is today) Baltic states of German ancestry and mercenaries from the west. Only after the Napoleonic wars were Russian generals given all the most prominent places. So it is indeed problematic to guage the ability of Russian generals especially afer all the historical 'revisions'.

[jastaV]

I'll make treasure of all comments and then, I'll try to edit some new profiles....that when I'll be out of Germany 1813 Hist Mod troubles!
In the meanwhile if you have other suggestions to post...
..they be welcome!

[jastaV]

Here a collection of Abilities to be used with enlisted leaders: not all abilities are to be used at the same time, (someones beeing from same family).
More profiles for same leader are recommended, as we already have in NCP database.


Napoleon
Artillerist: 20% combat bonus for all artillery units in the stack.

Morale Booster: This general is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +1 to discipline to all units in the stack (or all units in the region if he is the Command in Chief) he leads.

Offensive Master:Units under his command may deploy better and more units will be able to engage the enemy when attacking (apply also if army commander).

Fast Mover: If the commander, 15% move bonus to the whole stack.

Very Fast Mover: If the commander, 25% move bonus to the whole stack.

Very Fast Mover: If the commander, 30% move bonus to the whole stack.

Pontoneer: Provides a 50% speed bonus to the whole stack when crossing rivers.

Master Logistician: This leader provides a 25% reduction on the whole stack supply consumption, even if not the commander.

Forager: This element or commander reduces by 25% the chances that a unit pillages a region when foraging (i.e. when regular supply is lacking).

Expert Forager: This element or commander reduces by 50% the chances that a unit pillages a region when foraging (i.e. when regular supply is lacking).

Surpriser: If the commander, 20% chance of surprising the enemy (first fire).

Multinational Commander: Can lead units of any nationality without penalty.

Charismatic: This leader has a true charismatic aura. If the commander, provides +5 Maximum Cohesion and a +25% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.

Strong Morale: This element is either composed of highly motivated, battle-hardened individuals or is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +5 Maximum Cohesion bonus to all others elements of the unit.

Admired Commander: The leader is beloved and reverred by his men, as he cares about their well-being. If the commander, provides a +25% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.

Strategist: If the Commander in Chief in the Theater, provides +1 Command Point and an additional +1 per ability level, to his stack and all subordinates Corps.

Great Strategist: If the Commander in Chief in the Theater, provides +3 Command Point and an additional +1 per ability level, to his stack and all subordinates Corps.

Screener: This element or general is able to screen and mask the progression of the whole force with the clever use of scouts, use of side-tracks and stealthy march subterfuges. +1 to the Hide Value of the stack and +25% to the Evasion value, if the stack is moving.

Commit Guard: This leader can order the Guard to commit into battle. When the Guard commits, all friendly units receive a +10 Cohesion bonus during 2 rounds. If the Guard fail to rout the enemy or is routed, all friendly units suffers a -20 Cohesion penalty for the rest of battle. The Guard can only be commited if in sufficient number and if the battle is at a turning point.


Wellington
Defensive Engineer: 10% defensive fire bonus and 1 extra protection when the stack is already entrenched.

Fire Discipline: If the commanding officer, +10% firepower and assault value for all regular infantry units in the stack. +3 bonus to the check needed to form a square against cavalry charges.

Superior Tactician: Initiative bonus of 1 to all units under his command.
Defensive Commander: 10% defensive fire bonus.

Morale Booster: This general is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +1 to discipline to all units in the stack (or all units in the region if he is the Command in Chief) he leads.

Master of Defense Units under his command may deploy better and more units when defending, reducing the enemy's effectiveness (apply also if army commander).

Wonderful Tactician: Initiative bonus of 1 to all units under his command (apply also if army commander). Plus, if naval commander, +1 bonus to Wind Gauge
Surpriser: If the commander, 20% chance of surprising the enemy (first fire).
Anglo-German Commander: Can lead units of British or German nationality without penalty

Anglo-Portuguese Commmander: Can lead units of British or Portuguese nationality without penalty

Anglo-Spanish Commander: Can lead units of British or Spanish nationality without penalty

Training Master: Provides 1 experience point every turn to all the units in the stack by drilling them.

Strong Morale: This element is either composed of highly motivated, battle-hardened individuals or is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +5 Maximum Cohesion bonus to all others elements of the unit.

Good Commander: If in command provides +1 Command Point per ability level. (If in command of an army, subordinates corps also receive this bonus)
Deceiver This element or general is adept at establishing dummy positions (quaker guns and such), camouflaging to the enemy the real strength of his force. +1 to the Hide Value of the stack, if entrenched.


Blucher
Cavalryman: 25% combat bonus for all cavalry units in the stack, if in clear, woods, hills, steppes or desert terrain.

Morale Booster: This general is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +1 to discipline to all units in the stack (or all units in the region if he is the Command in Chief) he leads.

Withdrawer: If the commander, allows an easier retreat on the first two hours of the battle.

Expert Withdrawer: If the commander, allows an easier retreat on the first four hours of the battle.

Prusso-German Commander: Can lead units of Prussian or German nationality without penalty

Russo-German Commander: Can lead units of Russian or German nationality without penalty

Patriot: Gives a 25% bonus to the raise of partisans and volunteers in the State where he is present.

Training Master: Provides 1 experience point every turn to all the units in the stack by drilling them.

Good Army Administrator: The leader is appreciated by his men, as he cares about their well-being. If the commander, provides a +15% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.

Screener: This element or general is able to screen and mask the progression of the whole force with the clever use of scouts, use of side-tracks and stealthy march subterfuges. +1 to the Hide Value of the stack and +25% to the Evasion value, if the stack is moving.


Charles
Superior Tactician: Initiative bonus of 1 to all units under his command.

Morale Booster: This general is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +1 to discipline to all units in the stack (or all units in the region if he is the Command in Chief) he leads.

Slow Mover: If the commander, 25% move penalty to the whole stack.

Pontoneer: Provides a 50% speed bonus to the whole stack when crossing rivers.

Siege Expert: Provides a one point siege bonus to the whole stack when attacking forts.

Engineer: Provides a one point siege bonus to the whole stack when defending or attacking forts.

Austro-Italian Commander: Can lead units of Austrian or Italian nationality without penalty

Austro-German Commander: Can lead units of Austrian or German nationality without penalty

Poor Spy Network: If the commander, erroneous reports received worsen the detection of enemy units (except irregulars) within the Department.

Gifted Commander: This general is gifted for command. +2 Command Points and +1 additional CP per ability level above 1, to any stack he commands.(If in command of an army, subordinates corps also receive this bonus)



Kutuzov
Defensive Engineer: 10% defensive fire bonus and 1 extra protection when the stack is already entrenched.

Entrencher: 10% defensive fire bonus and 1 extra protection for the unit this element is in, if already entrenched.

Defensive Commander: 10% defensive fire bonus.

Morale Booster: This general is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +1 to discipline to all units in the stack (or all units in the region if he is the Command in Chief) he leads.

Master of Defense: Units under his command may deploy better and more units when defending, reducing the enemy's effectiveness (apply also if army commander).

Master Logistician: This leader provides a 25% reduction on the whole stack supply consumption, even if not the commander.

Scorched Earth: This element or commander will use a scorched earth tactics when capturing cities or occupying enemy regions.

Withdrawer: If the commander, allows an easier retreat on the first two hours of the battle.

Expert Withdrawer: If the commander, allows an easier retreat on the first four hours of the battle.

Patriot: Gives a 25% bonus to the raise of partisans and volunteers in the State where he is present.

Charismatic: This leader has a true charismatic aura. If the commander, provides +5 Maximum Cohesion and a +25% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.

Strong Morale: This element is either composed of highly motivated, battle-hardened individuals or is a leader capable of inspiring his men. The inspiration provided gives a +5 Maximum Cohesion bonus to all others elements of the unit.

Gifted Commander: This general is gifted for command. +2 Command Points and +1 additional CP per ability level above 1, to any stack he commands.(If in command of an army, subordinates corps also receive this bonus)

Over Cautious: This Commander is extremely cautious and will often act slowly if not in friendly territory. (-1 CP modifier and will be inactive if he rolls a percent dice under current military control)

[FM WarB]

Wellington and Nappy are overrated. Counterbalance it by overrating Kutosov, Blucher and Erzherzog Karl?
As gamers, we like to consider ourselves military geniuses of the First Order. Thus, we want the Leader we control to be as powerful as possible.

Were I the "young Napoleon" at Antietam, I'd have ended the Civil War in a day. (This aside for every Northern commander in any and all Civil War wargames who has torn his hair out over another stalled little Mac attack.)

[jastaV]

Wellington and Nappy are overrated. Counterbalance it by overrating Kutosov, Blucher and Erzherzog Karl?
As gamers, we like to consider ourselves military geniuses of the First Order. Thus, we want the Leader we control to be as powerful as possible.

Were I the "young Napoleon" at Antietam, I'd have ended the Civil War in a day. (This aside for every Northern commander in any and all Civil War wargames who has torn his hair out over another stalled little Mac attack.)

We have Froid here!
.......fully subscribe your psicological evalutation of the gamer!

And, yes: think we have to take away to first two and add something to last three.
Anyway think we cannot compare Nappy to Wellington: there's a good reason why AGEOD game title was Napoleon's Campaign rather than Wellington's Campaign!

[Adlertag]

Anyway think we cannot compare Nappy to Wellington: there's a good reason why AGEOD game title was Napoleon's Campaign rather than Wellington's Campaign!

We may even consider that Napoleon grew himself his stature whereas Wellington's own stature was given by Napoleon...

[Durin]

We may even consider that Napoleon grew himself his stature whereas Wellington's own stature was given by Napoleon...

Considering Napoleon we could see that his hability was link directly with three paramaters (that are linked with the campaigns)

First part 1798 to 1807 Eagles glory. Small armies (battle with less than 100k soldiers by sides, Small theaters, french % composition of the army (greater part of), opponents inabilities and obsolet tactics and french national support of the war.

Napy = Genius

Second part 1807 1811 Tide reversal. Greater armies, Big and multiple theaters, french % composition of the armies, better opponents tactics and hard learning from the previous disasters. Mitigate french national support

Napy = Genius but with some dysfonctionnement

Third part 1812 1813 The Fall. Ever bigger armies and theaters, 1812 disaster with the loss of the better part of the army and the cavalry. French national support failure (war wearinness). On the other side German national support at his best.

Napy = dysfonctionnement mainly due to his incapacity to delegate to others, and difficulties to find reliable marshall (the two exceptions were : Davout and Lannes and lannes was dead, and Davout somewhat in disgrace in 1812 (look at the position of the I corps at borodino)).

1813 : incapacity to delegate, bad luck and national support gone (in particular the collapsus of the french logistic system who was for part responsible of the disastrous autumn campain)

Last part 1814 : Small area, Small army (french point of view), National territory invade (so national support again but not at his best).

Napy = Genius, but the odds were too big.

So the parameters are :

Area of war size / Army size / National Support

I just remember that it was taken into account in the 1813 Leipzig Campaign game.

The lesser the french national support, the lesser the french leaders initiatives and the greater the allies leaders initiatives.

I think we must tweak the leaders accordingly to this parameters.

Concerning Bluecher we must not forget the positive effect of gneisenau in the management of the 1815 Campain. In fact Gneisenau save the head of bluecher who was rather straight forward.

in 1813 Bluecher was benefiting of the full national support of all the german peoples who were looking to be rid of the french heavy pressure.

Conclusion :

no more powers to the leaders, but a set of parameters linked to the year and perharps to the performance of the player also. Those parameters could be applied at different tests as modifier. Given similar circumstancies (location weather army size and composition), napy should be a super winner in 1805 and be the loser in 1813 of the same battle.

[Adlertag]

Happy to see you again roaming the forums, Benoît (Durin).

[jastaV]

Considering Napoleon we could see that his hability was link directly with three paramaters (that are linked with the campaigns).......
.....no more powers to the leaders, but a set of parameters linked to the year and perharps to the performance of the player also. Those parameters could be applied at different tests as modifier. Given similar circumstancies (location weather army size and composition), napy should be a super winner in 1805 and be the loser in 1813 of the same battle.

Great analysis!
Great suggestion!

JastaV

[Durin]

Happy to see you again roaming the forums, Benoît (Durin).

I am still roaming, but very very lightly. I've spoken with pocus about NPC and that's why i have taken a look.

I still have to make tests to see how bad it is.

By the side i am also roaming FFH forums and 0.33 is comming for the 15/08/08.

For the moment I think i am better prepare to speak of the grirory strategies than those of NPC, but we will see ....

regards