Too many sieges

[TheDoctorKing]

I have just begun playing this game but it seems to me that there are too many sieges. The default action for a force that is attacked in a region and is unable to defend it in an open field battle should be to run away to an adjacent area, not to retreat inside an unfortified town and dig in. The exception should be if the town has very extensive entrenchments (more than the level 4 that a normal infantry unit could dig) or if it has no place to run to (no nearby town or depot).

In a game I'm currently playing, the Union won the battle of Manassas, at which point the Confederate field army retreated inside the town and has held out for six weeks. Today, Manassas is a bedroom community of some tens of thousands of inhabitants outside Washington DC, but in 1861 it was a village of a couple of dozen houses, nothing like enough space for twenty thousand rebel soldiers to hole up, even if they had a stockpile of supplies. In 1861, the field armies didn't have the habit of digging in deeply anyway, and in fact when the Confederates were confronted in 1862 near Manassas they withdrew, massed their forces, and counter-attacked. Same with Bowling Green for the Union forces there -- they withstood a siege of several turns by Confederate forces instead of running away or dissolving. Lexington, Clarksburg, Springfield MO, and New Orleans, all the same. Of these, only New Orleans is a reasonable candidate for prolonged defense in a siege, and historically the Confederacy abandoned it as well when a small Union force landed nearby.

I don't know if this is a problem with the AI or something to do with the combat system, or something I'm doing wrong as the player. As the Union player in this scenario, I have been unsuccessful over the entire 1861 campaign year in taking any of these places. An assault on Springfield MO was unsuccessful, with about 3,000 Confederates under the second-rate General Price standing off about 7,000 Yankees under the excellent General Lyon. The Union assault on New Orleans was a humiliating defeat, with the "New Orleans Native Guards" -- a few hundred free blacks -- standing off two high-quality Union brigades and ultimately destroying them with the help of reinforcements rushed in from around the region. The Confederate main field army remains beseiged in Manassas despite several "defeats". A smaller Confederate force is besieged in Winchester (another relatively small town without facilities for housing a large number of defenders) for going on three months now. The siege of Lexington KY was broken by a Confederate relieving force after two turns. Clarksburg's small militia garrison continues to hold out after three turns. Very frustrating!

[soloswolf]

"New Orleans Native Guards" -- a few hundred free blacks --

Race really has nothing to do with your concerns.

The Confederate main field army remains beseiged in Manassas despite several "defeats". A smaller Confederate force is besieged in Winchester (another relatively small town without facilities for housing a large number of defenders) for going on three months now. The siege of Lexington KY was broken by a Confederate relieving force after two turns. Clarksburg's small militia garrison continues to hold out after three turns. Very frustrating!

Assault where you can, and when they have large stacks, make sure you have plenty of arty to bring the walls down around them. Also, I believe it is the default for forces outside of cities to withdraw to another region if compelled to retreat by a larger force.

[W.Barksdale]

First off what version are you playing?

I don't know if this is a problem with the AI or something to do with the combat system, or something I'm doing wrong as the player. As the Union player in this scenario, I have been unsuccessful over the entire 1861 campaign year in taking any of these places. An assault on Springfield MO was unsuccessful, with about 3,000 Confederates under the second-rate General Price standing off about 7,000 Yankees under the excellent General Lyon.

Price is a sound General. This sounds normal since after marching to Springfield Lyon's command was probably a little low on cohesion. I've had games where Price holds out against even longer odds with only militia.

The Union assault on New Orleans was a humiliating defeat, with the "New Orleans Native Guards" -- a few hundred free blacks -- standing off two high-quality Union brigades and ultimately destroying them with the help of reinforcements rushed in from around the region.

Again I am guessing the defenders were entrenched and your stack was not well rested. This severely reduces their fighting capability.

The Confederate main field army remains beseiged in Manassas despite several "defeats". A smaller Confederate force is besieged in Winchester (another relatively small town without facilities for housing a large number of defenders) for going on three months now.

In 1.09 Athena had a nasty habit of trapping herself inside a city. I think Pocus has fixed this. Try out the new beta patch. It should become official real soon.

[pepe4158]

I wonder Doc, if the game your playing isnt just an aberation? It must be against the AI you are playing these games, cartainlynot PvP as Runyan has pointed out most defenders traped in a siege is a death-trap.
Usually (especially in the new patch) Athena is good at keeping her forces outside the city....maybe you just happened to catch her resupplying her forces?

[TheDoctorKing]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try the new beta patch, I've been playing so far with v 1.09e.

As to the New Orleans Native Guards: Race is important in this case -- Louisiana had a somewhat more liberal attitude towards free blacks than the rest of the south, as evidenced by the fact that they did allow a few hundred of them to own weapons and organize themselves into a militia unit. However, these troops were of doubtful reliability, since they were aware that the southern cause was linked to the survival of slavery, and even though they themselves were in many cases slave owners they realized how slavery was linked to white supremacy, which affected them all negatively. In history (as opposed to my game version), the Native Guards were disbanded by the Louisiana government just before the Union invading force arrived, and when the Yankees took possession of the city most of the members of the unit offered their services to the United States. As the Native Guards in U.S. service, they fought with distinction in various campaigns in Louisiana and Mississippi. So it wasn't (as the southerners foolishly supposed) that their race made them bad soldiers but that their race made them natural enemies of the Confederacy. It was kind of wierd that they put up such a good fight against my (I now think premature) attempt to invade Louisiana.

[soloswolf]

As to the New Orleans Native Guards: Race is important in this case --

My point was, that for the purpose of this discussion, their race is irrelevant. The relevant point is that you had an amphibious assault end badly against a smaller force. This was probably due to low cohesion and the fact that amphibious assaults are very difficult to perform. Try capturing a smaller harbor region and then moving onto your real target.

[pepe4158]

It is an interesting piece of trivia tho, that some black men actually did offer their services to CSA as many people would naturally assume they never would.

[bk6583]

To chime in a bit, launching an amphip assault with just two brigades, regardless of their quality, is very likely going to fail as badly as did in your game. You need a minimum of a potent (17 elements with arty) division with supply and no command penalties and against some of the biggies like New Orleans, Mobile, or Charleston, you'll likely need a corps - and even then, you may find yourself involved in several turns of siege warfare to capture them.

Regarding sieges, I won't argue whether a town could hold such and such quantity of troops - I rather envision them entrenched in the environs outside the town. You really have to make sure you've got a large enough stack (preferably a corps with a minimum of two divisions) and plenty of arty in that stack, both in the divisions and the corps, to lay down a serious siege. An arty leader specialist and siege leader specialist in the stack also helps. If you show up with a lot less than what I've outlined (and that's what it sounds like from your post), particularly in the arty category, then you will receive endless "We're besieging this place and accomplishing nothing" messages.

Lastly, 1861 is a bit early for the Union to start trying anything but the most limited of advances and attacks.