Move and Repair/Destroy?

[soloswolf]

Is it possible to change the way repairing and destroying rails works (and destroying depots as well I suppose) so that you could move and then perform that function in the region you reach?

It's just frustrating to have to move, then wait until next turn to perform the action. Particularly when it only takes a couple of days to get somewhere, then you have to waste a lot of time not doing anything.

[Banks6060]

A-------men.

I think this could provide some balance issues possibly. But it could use some attention IMHO.

[W.Barksdale]

IMO the game already models this well. As it stands you can twist up the track and then move on to your next region with little or no delay. Hence no issue for railroads since it wrecking them happens very quickly.

Depots are a different story. When playing the south raiders have the pillager ability which should auto destroy a depot. Unfortunately the pillager ability is bugged and it is not working correctly as far as I can tell.

So besides the bugged ability I think everything is very well balanced and modelled extremely well. Personally I wouldn't touch it other than fixing the pillagers.

[soloswolf]

What I am saying is moving, and THEN being able to tear up/repair track or build/destroy a depot.

There are many turns where it will only take you a few days to reach a region where you would like to fix/destroy something, only to waste the remainder of your turn just sitting there.

So, my question is: Is there a way to fix that?

[Rafiki]

Hi, I'm Rafiki. I like to play devil's advocate from time to time when it comes to suggestions for new features

• How should it work?
• How should you indicate which region it is that you wish to destroy the rails in?
• Should it be possible to move, destroy stuff and then continue to move, or should destruction always occur in the last region the stack moves to?
• Should this replace the "destroy before move" system we have now, or should both be possible?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I'd also like to see if we can iron out some specifics before tossing it towards the devs for consideration

[W.Barksdale]

As for destroying a depot the pillager ability, once it is fixed, will do this for you. Building a depot takes 15 days, or one whole turn, so if you start building one on day 2 it is still going to be building once the next turn starts.

Tearing up track is quick. 1 day? 2 maybe? I don't know. Say there is an option to auto wreck the track once a unit arrives in a region. There is no difference moving and wrecking the track same turn as opposed to wrecking the track and then moving same turn.

[soloswolf]

Here's your due Mr. Devil!

Hi, I'm Rafiki. I like to play devil's advocate from time to time when it comes to suggestions for new features

How should it work?

Sorry to just ask for things with no proactive suggestion... Ideas below.



How should you indicate which region it is that you wish to destroy the rails in?

Maybe some sort of ctrl-d/r (?) while in the region you'd like to target? So you are in region A, you want to fix the rail in B and then move to C: Drag and drop from A to B, ctrl-r while the movement track only goes to B, then drag and drop onto C. (Does that make sense?) I know there is no set-up for these type of key actions at this point, but maybe something like that could be introduced?



Should it be possible to move, destroy stuff and then continue to move, or should destruction always occur in the last region the stack moves to?

I think so. If it only takes two days (or whatever), you should be able to do it and then move on.



Should this replace the "destroy before move" system we have now, or should both be possible?

I say both. As far as doing it while moving, there is sort of a precedent in the evade button. I am not sure if there is a way to code it, but couldn't you just have it function in all regions moved through?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I'd also like to see if we can iron out some specifics before tossing it towards the devs for consideration

[AndrewKurtz]

One option would be to be able to put units in a "destroy" or "repair" mode. If they then enter a region where they have less than 50% MC, they start to destroy. If the have more tha 50%, they start to repair.

50% is just a random guess at the right number.

Issue I see is that you could no longer destroy RR in the region you control, so that might be a really bad thing.

BTW, FWIW, this has always bugged me somewhat, be we also have to keep in mind what it is designed to simulate. I think that is massive distruption to the rail system, not just a little. Re-reading Foote and saw where Kilpatrick tore up miles of rail on the Macon line south of Atlanta, only to have locomotives running the next day. Similar stories with the Union responding quickly. So, as I thought more about this, I was less concerned and became more convinced the current system models a strategic disruption well.

[Brochgale]

One option would be to be able to put units in a "destroy" or "repair" mode. If they then enter a region where they have less than 50% MC, they start to destroy. If the have more tha 50%, they start to repair.

50% is just a random guess at the right number.

Issue I see is that you could no longer destroy RR in the region you control, so that might be a really bad thing.

BTW, FWIW, this has always bugged me somewhat, be we also have to keep in mind what it is designed to simulate. I think that is massive distruption to the rail system, not just a little. Re-reading Foote and saw where Kilpatrick tore up miles of rail on the Macon line south of Atlanta, only to have locomotives running the next day. Similar stories with the Union responding quickly. So, as I thought more about this, I was less concerned and became more convinced the current system models a strategic disruption well.

As CSA I like and even think it is essential to destroy RR - Let the yanks rebuild if they want. If as CSA I have to retreat then I dont want to leave RR for Yanks. I am retreating for good reason and I do like the WS I Get back.

[Rafiki]

Sorry to just ask for things with no proactive suggestion... ]

Nonono, that is not my motivation here at all, I think it's great when players offer suggestions for how their playing experience can become even better!

Rather, I hate to see good ideas pass by because no-one started thinking of the specifics. For the dev team, it's a lot easier to evaluate an idea if we present it in a rather specific way, with pros and cons of various implementations already debated, and thereby makes it more likely for something to make it into the game, provided that the Powers That Be consider it to be a good idea and worthy of inclusion

[soloswolf]

Nonono, that is not my motivation here at all, I think it's great when players offer suggestions for how their playing experience can become even better!

Rather, I hate to see good ideas pass by because no-one started thinking of the specifics. For the dev team, it's a lot easier to evaluate an idea if we present it in a rather specific way, with pros and cons of various implementations already debated, and thereby makes it more likely for something to make it into the game, provided that the Powers That Be consider it to be a good idea and worthy of inclusion

No worries duder. I didn't take any offense. Same team!

[chainsaw]

I'd vote to leave it alone...yes, it can be annoying to have to move into the region, wait a turn and THEN issue the order to destroy the RR's. But history shows that really tearing up the roads takes time. If we wanted to model history there would actually be two levels of RR destruction:

1. Rail Disruption = tearing up the rails, burning wood bridges, but not the rolling stock (such as could be done by cavalry moving through a rail region quickly). When Jackson "jacked" the locomotives from the B&O line early in the war that was about the only time the CSA obtained US rolling stock. This is what the game is doing now when you "destroy" the rails. Repairs are accomplished quickly by re-using the same iron rails (unbending them and replacing them back on a new bed of rail sleepers or ties) and rebuilding bridges with local materials. The Union was able to get bridges and destroyed lines back in operation quickly. ; and

2. Rail [color="Red"]DESTRUCTION[/color] = what Sherman did while moving through Georgia. It involves removing the rails, heating them on a burning pile of timber or rail ties, giving the rails a twist around a tree and torquing the rail (turning it along it's length). This would require more time to accomplish, and repairs would require a huge cost in war supplies (iron and material). All you have left is the ownership of the right-of-way and the rail bed (stone and cinders on a level base) & all else is new: new rails, new spikes, new signals, new supply & repair facilities, new rolling stock, etc...

This would be akin to having the ability to build a completely new RR line in the game. That would be fun...but don't think it's on Pocius' list of "to do".

[Skibear]

I would tend to agree that it works better the current way around for the following reasons:

At the moment there is a chance if there is a defending unit at the target railroad location you have to avoid getting detected by him. If you succeed then next turn you can click destroy, and stand a pretty good chance of escaping on to your next location.

However, actually I was originally thinking the proposed order means a massive advantage as the track would be out of action for an extra turn before the defender could respond and fix it. But if the defender also gets the ability to fix it at the end of their movement then that makes more sense.

Current:
turn 1 - raider moves to target region
turn 2 - raider destroys track and moves to next target / defending (usually) see's raider and dispatches response force.
turn 3 - defender fixes rail

Changed order:
turn 1 - raider moves to target region and destroys
turn 2 - raider moves to next location / defender sees track is broken, dispatches response and fixes.

Except that the fixing of the rails takes longer and so would have to be closer to the the location in order to be able to move and then fix. Plus the engineer ability to fix faster makes it more complicated.

Anyway, in the course of thinking about it I was dead against, then talked myself into thinking it was a good idea but finally decided that some of the factors, added to the point of how to you select which region you are going to break, then I think from a gameplay and coding point of view it makes sense the way round it currently is. At present you can:

T1 : Move
T2 : Destroy, move
T3 : Destroy, move

So how much time as a raider are you really wasting once you get on a roll?
And also one final thought into the equasion - it might encourage raiders low on supply going deep into enemy territory for one last suicide destruction at the end of turn that they would not be able to do if the knew they had to survive until the next turn in order to actual complete the sabotage. Another point in favour of realism keeping it as it currently is.

[pepe4158]

My only complaint is that IMO there should be a small chance the break would not occur, especially with hostile troops in the area, how could one concentrate on tearing steel up when looking over his shoulder every moment worrying about getting shot?
It seems unbalanced that a break always occurs 100%, but a repair doesnt?
Also slightly off track ...the evade is way too high in probability for Cav.

[soloswolf]

I'd vote to leave it alone...yes, it can be annoying to have to move into the region, wait a turn and THEN issue the order to destroy the RR's. But history shows that really tearing up the roads takes time. If we wanted to model history there would actually be two levels of RR destruction:

1. Rail Disruption = tearing up the rails, burning wood bridges, but not the rolling stock (such as could be done by cavalry moving through a rail region quickly). When Jackson "jacked" the locomotives from the B&O line early in the war that was about the only time the CSA obtained US rolling stock. This is what the game is doing now when you "destroy" the rails. Repairs are accomplished quickly by re-using the same iron rails (unbending them and replacing them back on a new bed of rail sleepers or ties) and rebuilding bridges with local materials. The Union was able to get bridges and destroyed lines back in operation quickly. ; and

2. Rail [color="Red"]DESTRUCTION[/color] = what Sherman did while moving through Georgia. It involves removing the rails, heating them on a burning pile of timber or rail ties, giving the rails a twist around a tree and torquing the rail (turning it along it's length). This would require more time to accomplish, and repairs would require a huge cost in war supplies (iron and material). All you have left is the ownership of the right-of-way and the rail bed (stone and cinders on a level base) & all else is new: new rails, new spikes, new signals, new supply & repair facilities, new rolling stock, etc...

This would be akin to having the ability to build a completely new RR line in the game. That would be fun...but don't think it's on Pocius' list of "to do".

Regarding time, complication of methods, etc.: Why does it only take a day or two now?

I am not trying to break the game or anything, just not waste time that men could be doing other things with. If I move my raiders to an enemy region, then next turn I destroy the rail in said region and order them to the next region to continue to destroy track. Now they wait in this new region like sitting ducks for anything traveling through/sitting there. (for days!) Or, I have to plot their movement path through additional regions to avoid combat, but I use up cohesion as well as time I could have been regaining cohesion already lost.