dhy
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Indians

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:05 pm

I just noticed that it is possible to recruit indians that come with their chiefs. I saw 3 chiefs at the start of game out in the far west. But after a few turns, they've disappeared. Last game I used all subvert indian cards on an indian unit (no chief listed) and it failed each time. The subvert card is also valid when there's no indians showing, which is odd, does it still work in that case? Anyone know how to go about getting one of those indian units led by a chief?

Does it matter if i burn the indian villages near Fayetteville/Springfield area?
Do rangers cause any problems? ( sending a ranger unit to where the indians are )

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Indians

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:21 pm

dhy wrote:I just noticed that it is possible to recruit indians that come with their chiefs. I saw 3 chiefs at the start of game out in the far west. But after a few turns, they've disappeared.


The AI can allow them to move around sometimes. As long as they are neutral, the only thing that can happen, is if they land in a region with an unmanned stockade. They can take on some MC of their own in the region, and there presence means you cannot take the fort automatically, which means you have to assault to capture the stockade :pleure:

dhy wrote:Last game I used all subvert indian cards on an indian unit (no chief listed) and it failed each time.


Has worked for me IIRC.

dhy wrote:The subvert card is also valid when there's no indians showing, which is odd, does it still work in that case?


Only if there are undetected indian units in the region where you play the card, but that is highly unlikely. AFAIK you will always see them if they are there.

The card has the requirement of the region containing an indian village, but does not check for the presence of an actual unit. You will have to do that yourself.

dhy wrote:Anyone know how to go about getting one of those indian units led by a chief?


If an indian leader is in a region with an indian village, play the card and do the rain dance. The last part won't help, but it amuses me :wacko:

dhy wrote:Does it matter if i burn the indian villages near Fayetteville/Springfield area?


I'm sure the indians aren't thrilled at the prospect :indien: :indien: :indien: but they won't go on the warpath. They're peaceful fellows. Leave them be :papy:

dhy wrote:Do rangers cause any problems?


Only when they're in the local tavern getting drunk :cwboy: :dada: :gardavou: :rolleyes:

dhy wrote:( sending a ranger unit to where the indians are )


The indians don't care. To them all palefaces smell equally bad :indien:

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DrPostman
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Re: Indians

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:53 pm

The only time I've seen the subvert card work is on Little Crow and his force, along with
the Lipans out West. Crow is one hell of a great commander for the Union. I have never
seen the subvert card work for the CSA. :(

dhy
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Re: Indians

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:53 am

The chiefs always disappear on turn #9. I went back to turn #7 several times to check this.

Soon as '62 hits I can play the subvert cards. I tried a dozen times, so 3 cards * 12 = 36 tries. Either the odds are very low or they simply don't work for the CSA, that would be nice to know, what's the point in the cards if they don't really work?

So I'm assuming then I'll have to mod the game to give me the chiefs. Having 999 subvert cards could be useful as well.

dhy
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Re: Indians

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:29 am

I haven't played as the Union yet because I found their forces to be a bit overwhelming to manage. I also feel like it's far less of a challenge against an AI.

In my last game (lieut. difficulty) I pretty much destroyed the whole Union army in the east, allowing me to take all the way up to New York City and further if I wanted to. After you take Alexandria one can play defense with Lee or Longstreet and wipe their army. Several battles there were 30k loss to them to my 2k (counting infantry only). Jackson took D.C. with 3k power in it, wasn't much of a fight, the Union ran away when he showed up, backed by Lee and Longstreet corps. Ft. Monroe was easy for Forrest's corps too and well worth the money. Forrest at one point, showed an attack rating of 8 after taking Monroe (Lee corps gift + own upgrade), though it didn't stick, ah well.

Out west ended up where most of the Union's big stacks were. Grant got caught sitting in a level 1 city somewhere along the south mississippi river with barely any troops, after having given me a hard time in the battles for Cairo. Never saw him again after taking back the city.

I'd probably get smashed against a human opponent though.

dhy
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Re: Indians

Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:37 pm

For subverting looks like you need one of these:
MustHaveAdjThisSUFamily = $famElite|$famLine|$famcavalry|$famMilitia

So rangers are out since they're famRaider. However during my testing where I couldn't get it to work I had plain old cav with them, both adjacent and on the same region. Trying to figure out how to get these decisions to pop from the beginning so I can try it then.

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Re: Indians

Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:38 pm

dhy wrote:For subverting looks like you need one of these:
MustHaveAdjThisSUFamily = $famElite|$famLine|$famcavalry|$famMilitia


You need >= 1 element of >= 1 of the families listed (Elite, Line, Cavalry, or Militia) in Indian Village region or in an region adjacent to the Indian Village to play the RGD. That's what that means.

If you have one of the elements in or adjacent to the village and select the RGD card the region with the village will be overlaid in green and you can play the card there, while all other regions will be overlaid in red and you will not be able to play the card in those regions.

dhy wrote:So rangers are out since they're famRaider. However during my testing where I couldn't get it to work I had plain old cav with them, both adjacent and on the same region. Trying to figure out how to get these decisions to pop from the beginning so I can try it then.


Ranger units are inconsequential. It doesn't matter where they are. Only having an element of one of the families Elite, Line, Cavalry, or Militia in or adjacent to the village matters.

Playing the RGD is only half of the battle. The other half is the event which fires once the RGD has been played.

Look in the '.\CivilWarII\CW2\Events\RegionsDecisions.sct' event script for the 'RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA' event:

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = USA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit

EndEvent


In the 'Conditions' section of the event you see that it selects all the 'Enemy' subunits (elements) and then does a 'EvalSubUnitCount' 6 times.

Description of EvalSubUnitCount:
name = EvalSubUnitCount
| syntax = <Operator>;<Value>
| description = Compare the number of SubUnits currently selected to the value, using the operator indicated.
| example = >=; 40
| example-description = Result is "True" if the currently selected count of subunits is greater than or equal to 40.
| example2 = DICE_NOT
| example2-description = Result is "True" if the currently selected count of subunits is less than a d100 dr results.
Note: See [[SelectSubUnits]]

So it counts the 'Enemy' elements and roles a 100 sided (d100) die 6x. If any of the rolls are < the selected elements, the event fails and you don't get the Indians.

So, I've been going through my old notes, because I've looked into the subverting Indians issue before quite a while ago. I was looking for a solution to the issue of needing the Indian Village to be able to play the card, because the neutral Indians can wander away from the villages, and I came up with replacing the

Code: Select all

'NeedThisStrucAttribAny = #Is_NativeVillage#'


requirement with

Code: Select all

MustHaveInThisSUAttrib = #IsIndian#
MustHaveNumQualify = 1


in the RGD.

But all Indian units have this, including those you get per event, enemy Indian units, etc, and there is no way for the RGD to require the Indian element to not be enemy (CS controlled for the Union, or US controlled for the CS), and not be controlled by your own faction.

I also see that I modded the event, partly to get around my modded RGD being able to be played in a region with enemy Indian units (I didn't think it would be right to be able to subvert Standwattie and all the Indian units in his region) so I changed the events from:

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = CSA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit

EndEvent

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = USA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit

EndEvent


to

Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

SelectFaction = IND
Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = CSA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit
  AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0

EndEvent

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansUSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

SelectFaction = IND
Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = USA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit
  AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0

EndEvent



The reasoning being, that enemy Indian units have the enemies faction tag and friendly Indian units have your faction tag, 'CSA' for CS Indian units for example, while neutral Indian units, those you ought to be able to subvert, have the 'IND' faction tag. So selecting only subunits with the 'IND' faction tag eliminates taking over actual enemy units.

I also added 'AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0', because IIRC the AI controls which Indian units can move around by locking and unlocking them, which it does periodically and randomly I believe, which means if you subvert a locked Indian unit, you control it, but it is locked and you cannot move it. So this fixes that as well.

So maybe the unmodded RGD's and events don't work after all. I'll have to look into it further with some testing... again *sigh*.

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DrPostman
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Re: Indians

Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:25 am

I made the mistake of bribing an Indian unit in New Mexico once that was fixed. Might try
that modification of yours.

dhy
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Re: Indians

Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:52 pm

So maybe the unmodded RGD's and events don't work after all. I'll have to look into it further with some testing... again *sigh*.


Thanks for the info and your efforts. It's not a big deal, I just felt like playing with some indians now that I feel a bit too comfortable against the AI. I know the CSA gets some automatically, but if I increase difficulty, I thought maybe some extra indians could help.

Oh btw, there were no enemy units in the region at the time I was subverting, this was being done in Arizona and the areas around there right at the start of '62.

Would you by chance know how to release the subvert/cooperation/the whole set that comes in '62 cards early, for use in '61? I'm assuming it is done through an event but I can't seem to find it, the language used for this stuff is really odd to me, homegrown im assuming.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Indians

Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:43 pm

dhy wrote:
So maybe the unmodded RGD's and events don't work after all. I'll have to look into it further with some testing... again *sigh*.


Thanks for the info and your efforts. It's not a big deal, I just felt like playing with some indians now that I feel a bit too comfortable against the AI. I know the CSA gets some automatically, but if I increase difficulty, I thought maybe some extra indians could help.


The Union gets some too, along with Blunt, in eastern Kansas, a couple of times IIRC, but not right from the start.

dhy wrote:Oh btw, there were no enemy units in the region at the time I was subverting, this was being done in Arizona and the areas around there right at the start of '62.


You mean, no CS units? Actually, I don't think that would make a difference, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

dhy wrote:Would you by chance know how to release the subvert/cooperation/the whole set that comes in '62 cards early, for use in '61? I'm assuming it is done through an event but I can't seem to find it, the language used for this stuff is really odd to me, homegrown im assuming.


Well, of course in the '.\CivilWarII\CW2\Events\RegionsDecisionsRenewal.sct' script, but the event has the 'Conditions' constraint 'TurnIndex = 0'.

The TurnIndex is like the week number of a year, but only for counting the turn number, and starting with 0 instead of 1. The very first turn of the year (Early Jan '6n) has TurnIndex 0, which means you only get new subversion RGD's on the first of the year.

You might try forcing the script through the console, but not sure it will work, but it's worth a try I guess.

You are responsible for any schabernack you get yourself into using the console, to be careful.

On a US keyboard, the key with '~' (tilda) opens and closes the console. It's in the upper left corner of the typewriter keys, below the <Esc> IIRC.

'?' will give you a list of built-in commands.

ForceEvent <EventName> is what you want to try: ForceEvent CSA_RGDCSSubvertIndians .

It should cause the event to run at the next turn execution with all 'Conditions' answering 'true', which should force the event to work. You will see the results the turn after this one.

dhy
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Re: Indians

Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:29 pm

Code: Select all

UID = 21
Alias = rgdSubvertIndiansCSA
Name = $rgd_nam_SubvertIndiansCSA
ShortName = $rgd_shortnam_SubvertIndiansCSA
Text = $rgd_txt_SubvertIndiansCSA
Kind = $rgdSocial
Subtype = $dstMilControl
SoundsPlayed = $snd_RGD_SubvertIndiansCSA
ImageMap = RgnDecision_OnMap_SubvertIndiansCSA.png
ImagePanel = RgnDecision_SubvertIndiansCSA.png
ImageFlavor = CW2_MCIncr.png
MustHaveAdjThisSUFamily = $famElite|$famLine|$famcavalry|$famMilitia|$famRaider
MustHaveInThisSUAttrib = #IsIndian#
MustHaveNumQualify = 1
Duration = 1
Inp_Abs_Money = 45
Effect_PostponeEnd = 1
Effect_ScriptFileName = RegionsDecisions
Effect_ScriptName = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA
Effect_Str_Success = str_CMN_rgd_SubvertIndiansCSA



Code: Select all

StartEvent = RGDScriptSubvertIndiansCSA|999|0|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
  SelectSubUnits = Region
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT
  EvalSubUnitCount = DICE_NOT

Actions
  SelectSubUnits = Region;FactionTags IND

SelectFaction = CSA
  TakeOverUnits = PerUnit
  AlterCuSubUnit = ApplytoList;SetFixing 0
EndEvent



Thanks, I removed turnIndex earlier and got it to fly. I can't get the subvert card to be valid anymore though, no idea why. Don't expect you to figure it out but I posted my changes in any case. I took out the remove FP effect so I can test without the 3 card limit. Did the same for my rangers by adding famRaider, assuming this'll apply to them. I've been
exiting and starting a new campaign each time I make any change, not sure if this is necessary... I'll have to experiment more to find out.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Indians

Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:00 pm

Yes, I know why the RGD I modded doesn't work. It's because the RGD parameters beginning "MustHave..." refer to your own units, and not the target units.

I discovered this in my tests yesterday and went through available parameters, searching for a way to parameterize checking the target unit, but it's not possible, except for the 'NeedThisStrucAttribAny' which targets structures in the target region; ie where you wish to play the card.

Without 'NeedThisStrucAttribAny', when the RGS is selected, every single region on the map would be overlaid in green, and you could play the card anywhere.

The original even is broken in that the Conditions statement "SelectSubUnits = Region;Enemy" will only select 'Enemy' sub-units. In CW2 enemy means CSA sub-units when the RGD isp played by the Union player, and visa versa, which is not how it's supposed to work, of course.

The event-mods I wrote, however do work. The 'SelectFaction = IND' restrict selecting units other than those owned by the IND faction, and those are only Indian units, which have not be subverted or otherwise giving to one of the players.

So in the Conditions section the statement 'SelectSubUnits = Region' can only select neutral Indian sub-units, so regardless of what else might be in the region, the event will work as expected.

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DrPostman
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Re: Indians

Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:13 am

I know I've only be able to convert Little Crow and his troops, along with some CSA Indian units.
That's it.

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Captain_Orso
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Re: Indians

Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Yes, IIRC you mentioned you subverted Little Crow during the Great Sioux Uprising, which would make all Indian units enemy for as long as that event is active, which allows the unmodded event to work on all 'enemy' Indian units. The same goes for CSA owned Indian Units. That's exactly what ought not be happening.

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DrPostman
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Re: Indians

Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:42 am

Captain_Orso wrote:Yes, IIRC you mentioned you subverted Little Crow during the Great Sioux Uprising, which would make all Indian units enemy for as long as that event is active, which allows the unmodded event to work on all 'enemy' Indian units. The same goes for CSA owned Indian Units. That's exactly what ought not be happening.


It works 100% of the time, and Little Crow can command regular Union cavalry, which should
also never happen. It becomes the most powerful cavalry unit the Union can build. Here's what
that looks like in my current game:

Image

Image

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