Navy, naval build up and effects on gameplay

[bwiser]

I read several posts and threads about large parts missing in the Naval aspects of the game, also I think that I experienced this myself - being Russia I was able to fight the Crimean War without any AI Naval interference ( i.e. I was not forced to protect my merchant marine).

Which are your experiences, to be more concrete:
1.) Did you experience any naval warfare in any of your games?
2.) Did you experience any landings of army / marines?
3.) I also learned from your posts (e.g. Loki's S-P game) that your interaction was required to establish / renew the AI navies per country. When is it necessary to do that in terms of the exact year or phase of the game?
4.) Is there any (other) way to entice the AI to improve their naval warfare?

I think that Naval warfare and Gunboat diplomacy was a quite important aspect especially for the colonization process and in some wars (e.g. Russian-Japanese war, Spanish-American war, etc.) and I am a bit confused that this aspect seems to be heavily buggy. Or am I wrong here?

Thx in advance for your experiences and answers re my questions !!

[loki100]

The problem seems to be that left to itself the AI does not build new ships. Christophe has written a routine that seeks to give the AI more attention to naval build ups, so you could try that.

The alternative maybe to use an event to allocate ships to the AI (which is what I did) nations. There are two complete naval OOBs in the game - connected to the 1880 and the never produced 1914 scenarios (you'll find these in the 'includes' sub-directory. Those, adapted to your game (you can basically copy and paste) should help the mid/late game. Pre-1880, maybe give some more sail battleships to the bigger naval powers (say GB and France).

The AI does use a navy if it has one, including invasions. I found it tends to head for the naval boxes rather than look for your fleet, but once I'd done my version of the above I had a couple of large naval actions. So my instinct is that the AI does ok at naval warfare when it has the tools, but for some reason, left to itself, it tends not to build the ships it needs.

[basilhare]

The problem seems to be that left to itself the AI does not build new ships.

Ouch! This would almost seem like a game breaker? Does the AI at least upgrade the existing navies as technology evolves? Maybe I missed it, but is there a link for Chris's naval fix and how to install it? Thanks.

[loki100]

Ouch! This would almost seem like a game breaker? Does the AI at least upgrade the existing navies as technology evolves? Maybe I missed it, but is there a link for Chris's naval fix and how to install it? Thanks.

Christophe has reported that his script did lead to a change of behaviour, so its an issue of perceived priorities rather than lack of capacity.

the link is here but you'll need to read the entire thread to extract the revisions you need to set up (one thing that is ongoing ... but slowly ... is trying to pull all his work and related contributions into a pack of events that people can just install)

Edit

I'm sorry, that thread is just a discussion. You'll find examples of the script he produced in a discussion about the Far East, plus lots of nice events to simulate the late game in that region.

I think the problem, as Christophe has mentioned, is that in many games of PoN you tend to pay little attention to the AI nations except for trade and so on, unless there is a war. In my game it was not till I actually had a war with GB that I really became suspicious about the naval issue - I sunk the starting Ottoman fleet (& given their problems it was no surprise they never rebuilt it) and a lack of naval action in my tussles with Austria was of no surprise.

[bwiser]

Loki - once again - thanks for sharing your expertise and your fast answers !!

I am a bit confused which routines to take: Following your links Christoph "only" created the Japanese build up - which surely will be useful for my Russia game , but I did not find a "generic" build up routine or other countries in his posts.

Which routine should I use for GB, France, Germany, Austria, Italy. You mentioned that you created a build up and I remember reading about it in your S-P AAR a couple of months ago but I just did not re-find it now - do you recommend this one - could you share a link and how do I include this - just copy and paste into a plain text-file?

Sorry to bother you again in this matter - and again thanks for your help

[basilhare]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the help and advice...I think I am going to put PoN aside for now and wait for more work to be completed in future updates...I love the game, scope and potential but am disheartened by the number of bugs that still remain to be fixed...I guess I will move on to "TEAW" for now...thanks.

[bwiser]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the help and advice...I think I am going to put PoN aside for now and wait for more work to be completed in future updates...I love the game, scope and potential but am disheartened by the number of bugs that still remain to be fixed...I guess I will move on to "TEAW" for now...thanks.

It's really a question, what you want. Per Loki's explanation this for me is nothing more than an oversight than a bug (naval warfare is working as long as they've got the boats - that saved my day). For me there is no need for an AI steered building process (would be nice but it should work properly and not catapult you in an unrealistic lala-land).

Closeness to history with possibilities of alternative paths is what I am aiming for. Victoria II would be a good candidate in this time frame as well, but for me V II is too far away in the fantasy-land and is too ... "generic". Sure PON could have a deeper inner politics play, but its economics (domestic /MTBs), the literally strenuous and long-taking colonialism, super-detailed armies / navies WITH supply chains / weather effecting them, closeness to history (just to name a few) - all this for me sums up as being far superior. And: it just feels like you are in the 19th century - no other game achieved this for me for the Victorian era.

Regarding Christophs/ Loki's work regarding the scripts: It would really be awesome if you could package these in one ZIP and provide it to us non-literates of the inner works of the engine.

[loki100]

Loki - once again - thanks for sharing your expertise and your fast answers !!

I am a bit confused which routines to take: Following your links Christoph "only" created the Japanese build up - which surely will be useful for my Russia game , but I did not find a "generic" build up routine or other countries in his posts.

Which routine should I use for GB, France, Germany, Austria, Italy. You mentioned that you created a build up and I remember reading about it in your S-P AAR a couple of months ago but I just did not re-find it now - do you recommend this one - could you share a link and how do I include this - just copy and paste into a plain text-file?

Sorry to bother you again in this matter - and again thanks for your help

I've just managed to delete a longer reply so this is just the basics:

To amend to France, I'd do:

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Ile de France
StartEvent = evt_nam_FRA_NavalBuildUp|1|2|NULL|NULL|Null|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1860/01/01
EvalAI = 1

Actions

SelectFaction = $FRA
AI.SetLandBuild = 100
AI.SetNavBuild = 100

SelectRegion = $Bretagne

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Brest Naval Yards
Apply

SelectRegion = $Provence

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Toulon Naval Yards
Apply

You could amend that to any of the majors. The key is you have given the AI an instruction to make naval builds as important as land builds. I'd then keep an eye on the AI nations and every 5 years or so, double check that they haven't gone too far. I've also set the start date for 1860 so as to ensure this doesn't distort the AI in the early phases. Adding the two shipyards will help with the speed of build.

It's really a question, what you want. Per Loki's explanation this for me is nothing more than an oversight than a bug (naval warfare is working as long as they've got the boats - that saved my day). For me there is no need for an AI steered building process (would be nice but it should work properly and not catapult you in an unrealistic lala-land).

Closeness to history with possibilities of alternative paths is what I am aiming for. Victoria II would be a good candidate in this time frame as well, but for me V II is too far away in the fantasy-land and is too ... "generic". Sure PON could have a deeper inner politics play, but its economics (domestic /MTBs), the literally strenuous and long-taking colonialism, super-detailed armies / navies WITH supply chains / weather effecting them, closeness to history (just to name a few) - all this for me sums up as being far superior. And: it just feels like you are in the 19th century - no other game achieved this for me for the Victorian era.

Regarding Christophs/ Loki's work regarding the scripts: It would really be awesome if you could package these in one ZIP and provide it to us non-literates of the inner works of the engine.

I think this is the fundamental frustration with PoN. Its a work of genius and has a depth that makes it captivating despite the problems. There is no point rehearsing the damage that Paradox did in how they handled the release/financing as that is done. So we're left with the limited time the Phils can manage and essentially self-support (& the hope of a 'gold' version).

I do think in a game like this you'll always need to intervene a bit with scripts. At the end the (good) AI is an AI, and if you want an enduring challenge as the player you may need to give it a helping hand now and then.

As to a unified event pack, that is what we are trying to do, then allow Pocus to review and hopefully it gets released as a patch. Problem is those doing this are all dipping in and out, we have our own hobby horses and there is a (productive) tension between just making the current events work as designed and trying to add more flavour. Linked to the gold issue, is the question whether more work can ever be done on the AI (the diplomatic AI is the main one but clearly that also covers the issue of naval builds). If not then we are slowly learning how to design events to help it along and make it appear more interactive (I've done something that means an AI Italy will be opportunistic in its quest for Lombardia and the Veneto), but the ideal is of course at the level of the code.

[bwiser]

So that means, that I just need to "encourage" the AI to build naval bases - the rest will do the AI ?? That would be a huge relief - Loki, I will try this - would 2 naval bases be enough for UK, France, Germany and 1 naval base for Italy?

I assume that Matrix / Slitherine is a way better home now for AGEOD than PDOX was with too many product conflicts esp. regarding PON vs. V II - at least what I observe in Product release quality of EAW compared to PON at release, and the boxed CL edition of EAW is so beautiful

I rather hope that there will be a PON gold edition sooner than later (and also the RUS gold edition btw ...

[Reiryc]

Loki, you're a gem.

Just picked up pon as it was on sale and have read your italy aar. So much in there that really helps me pick up the game.

[loki100]

So that means, that I just need to "encourage" the AI to build naval bases - the rest will do the AI ?? That would be a huge relief - Loki, I will try this - would 2 naval bases be enough for UK, France, Germany and 1 naval base for Italy?

that script effectively does 2 things - it tells the AI that a fleet is as important as land builds and, with the shipyards, makes it that bit easier/quicker for it to build. If it doesn't take the hint, you could try AI.SetNavBuild = 200 (or higher). Christophe reported that '100' worked well for Japan, but it does depend on the AI having the other tools (late game steel is a problem) to do the building. As to number of bases, I don't think that you need a lot, as a player I'd only build a couple and really develop them as I can't think of a situation where I would be able to afford to build all that many ships at any one time.

Loki, you're a gem.

Just picked up pon as it was on sale and have read your italy aar. So much in there that really helps me pick up the game.

thank you, as maybe clear, Manufacturing Italy started out as a 'teach myself PoN' exercise, but I felt that would be as much use as a more expert rendition. I think with a game the length and depth of PoN, at the start the feedback mechanisms are really hard to grasp, so the idea was to allow someone to see the consequences of early decisions as the game progresses.

As most people say, PoN is seriously addictive once you get into it. I've never played a SP game before where even quite late I had to spend ages preparing for a war and could still fail to win that war once it occurred. Usually by that stage, any conflict human-AI is a matter of just making the moves. The gaps do exist, but there does seem to be solutions in the most part.

[bwiser]

that script effectively does 2 things - it tells the AI that a fleet is as important as land builds and, with the shipyards, makes it that bit easier/quicker for it to build. If it doesn't take the hint, you could try AI.SetNavBuild = 200 (or higher). Christophe reported that '100' worked well for Japan, but it does depend on the AI having the other tools (late game steel is a problem) to do the building. As to number of bases, I don't think that you need a lot, as a player I'd only build a couple and really develop them as I can't think of a situation where I would be able to afford to build all that many ships at any one time.

Do I create a dedicated scenario (.sct file) for this or do I put it into one or more existing scenarios in order for the AI to include these events. Reading other scenarios I assume I can put all countries events into one file, can't I?

[loki100]

Do I create a dedicated scenario (.sct file) for this or do I put it into one or more existing scenarios in order for the AI to include these events. Reading other scenarios I assume I can put all countries events into one file, can't I?

matter of taste really. I ended up with one I called 'use and delete', and put all the one off events I created into there. Used them, then deleted them (I actually have a word document somewhere with all the events I came up with stored). The reason for this is that every event is checked as part of the turn processing routine. While I suspect a single event, even on a slow computer, adds very little, we're all aware that the last thing that PoN needs is to have more to process each turn.

It also meant they couldn't fire if I started a new game and so on.

[bwiser]

matter of taste really. I ended up with one I called 'use and delete', and put all the one off events I created into there. Used them, then deleted them (I actually have a word document somewhere with all the events I came up with stored). The reason for this is that every event is checked as part of the turn processing routine. While I suspect a single event, even on a slow computer, adds very little, we're all aware that the last thing that PoN needs is to have more to process each turn.

It also meant they couldn't fire if I started a new game and so on.

Very neat approach !! - I am close to 1860, so I will use this and then report in the forum about my experience - not likely super-soon since it will take a while to see the results ...
- and again: Thank you very very much !

[bwiser]

matter of taste really. I ended up with one I called 'use and delete', and put all the one off events I created into there. Used them, then deleted them (I actually have a word document somewhere with all the events I came up with stored). The reason for this is that every event is checked as part of the turn processing routine. While I suspect a single event, even on a slow computer, adds very little, we're all aware that the last thing that PoN needs is to have more to process each turn.

It also meant they couldn't fire if I started a new game and so on.

Dear Loki,

first: happy new year!

you helped me on this a couple of months ago. I had a little PON pause but resumed recently my Russia game (during the holidays). I did check back with the seafaring nations and recognized that Albion has 3 or 4 large naval yards and also France (Bretagne and Toulon) WITHOUT running your script. Does this mean that with these assets they will keep their fleet up-to-snuff /does it mean that I still have to fire your event?

thanks again for your advice !

[loki100]

Hi

I think you'll still need to tell the AI to make naval builds a priority. Its good it has the infrastructure. I think the basic problem is the AI is being too logical - at the lower priority, building up your navy, especially once you shift to coal is very expensive both as build costs and as a demand on an already hard to access good (coal). So you need to offset this logical reluctance to go and build a huge white elephant (ok I realise white elephants sink at sea), you need to tell it that white elephants are more important.

Its actually quite realistic in that there was little in the period 1880-1918 that indicated that the huge battlefleets were of any use, except that if someone else had one, you needed one, so you could then both negate the other.

Once you go beyond the sail generation (ie BB#3), then you and the AI need to engage in scrap and replace as new generations come on line, so that might be another challenge that the AI becomes stuck with the first generation of coal powered ships.

[bwiser]

Hi

I think you'll still need to tell the AI to make naval builds a priority. Its good it has the infrastructure. I think the basic problem is the AI is being too logical - at the lower priority, building up your navy, especially once you shift to coal is very expensive both as build costs and as a demand on an already hard to access good (coal). So you need to offset this logical reluctance to go and build a huge white elephant (ok I realise white elephants sink at sea), you need to tell it that white elephants are more important.

Its actually quite realistic in that there was little in the period 1880-1918 that indicated that the huge battlefleets were of any use, except that if someone else had one, you needed one, so you could then both negate the other.

Once you go beyond the sail generation (ie BB#3), then you and the AI need to engage in scrap and replace as new generations come on line, so that might be another challenge that the AI becomes stuck with the first generation of coal powered ships.

Ah - I understand. Again thanks for the clarification!

When I want to also let Great Britain, Prussia and Italy to build up their navies, may I use the same file which you started, and just continue with (see below) or do I need separate files? I am wondering because you have some intro lines only regarding France (i.e. SelectRegion= $Ile der France) - sorry for my ignorance but that will be my first PON script....



SelectFaction = $GBR
AI.SetLandBuild = 100
AI.SetNavBuild = 100

SelectRegion = $South East

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Shearness Naval Yards
Apply

SelectRegion = $South

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Portsmouth Naval Yards
Apply

SelectRegion = $South West

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Devonport Naval Yards
Apply

SelectFaction = $ITA
AI.SetLandBuild = 100
AI.SetNavBuild = 100

SelectRegion = $La Spezia

CreateStruc
SetType = $Shipyard2
SetLevel = 2
SetName = Base Navale di La Spezia
Apply

[loki100]

no reason not to add to the original, I often used separate files as it makes bug catching a bit easier (you know which one has failed to work). But the script looks fine.

[basilhare]

Checking back after a long absence...does the "new" 1.04 patch address the naval build problem when playing solo against the AI or do you still have to manually intervene with special scripts to get the nations to build ships? Thanks.

[loki100]

Not really sure to be honest.

The changes to AI priorities discussed above are now in the game events. My problem is I've spent most of the time dipping in and out of games testing events rather than looking at the natural development of the game. I've a current game on the go but only up to 1854.

From that, the AI definitely will do naval invasions but I think still tends to send its combat fleet into the commerce boxes. Too early to say if the new build routines will see a change - you'd have to push a game into the 1870s+ when you need to replace your sail warships.

[basilhare]

Not really sure to be honest.

The changes to AI priorities discussed above are now in the game events. My problem is I've spent most of the time dipping in and out of games testing events rather than looking at the natural development of the game. I've a current game on the go but only up to 1854.

From that, the AI definitely will do naval invasions but I think still tends to send its combat fleet into the commerce boxes. Too early to say if the new build routines will see a change - you'd have to push a game into the 1870s+ when you need to replace your sail warships.

Thanks for your reply. I may give it a go and see what happens....