Questions about the "texture" problem

[Franciscus]

Pocus, in the maximum texture size option post, stated:
"The settings are: Small Textures, Medium Textures, Large Textures, Very Large Textures (default). For the vast majority of players, the default setting is perfectly fine. For now we have only 0.5% of hardware problems which are not coming from an out of date video driver (annoying for the people who get it though)."

Well, let me introduce myself: I am the "half-percent"...
I have an ASUS A7N8X-E motherboard, Athlon 64 3000+ processor (a bit outdated, I admit), 2 Gig of RAM and an ATI x1600 AGP graphic card, with the latest Omega drivers. I have consistently experienced crashes, generally a few turns into the game, which seem to be related to the texture loading/unloading problem. It happens with very large and large textures, but have not yet tried to play with the "small" textures option (althogh looking to the map, it seems that the sea regions are affected, but not the land regions. But the problems in my case seem to be related to land regions...).
I have fiddled with several parameters, namely, for instance, in the BIOS, AGP aperture size and fastwrites, and my Virtual memory (was 4 Gig, on a different drive from the one were the system files are; now I will try to split it between the 2 drives and let Windows manage it). Defragmented my hard drive several times. But still, more or less randomly it happens. Been talking to Pocus by e-mail and he assured me that the graphics engine will eventually be improved and this problem will go away.
But I will like to discuss it here, with anyone interested.
Several points:

1. I may be wrong, but I think that in a 2D game as AACW, the RAM memory is more important than the memory of the graphic card. One excellent example is TC2M, whih absolutely required 2 Gig RAM (that's why I have them... ) to play in high res. Same thing in AACW, I presume ?

2. What is the size of the textures in the full map of AACW ? Certainly not exceeding 2+4 Gig !!!. I mean, I and I presume many of you have been playing 2D games for years, back in the times of 4 mb graphic cards and 32 (or less) Mb RAM, with maps as large as this one (although not as pretty )

3. The message in the error log seems to always indicate insufficient memory. It reminds me very much of a memory leak, as happened, for instance in RTW . Maybe the textures are continuosly loaded in the physical memory and then in the virtual memory, but are not adequately removed by the game engine ? (please, do not flame me, I am not badmouthing anyone, I think that AGEOD is a great outfit and are genuinely intersted in improving this great game).

My interest is to help and get this game up and running as smoothly as possible.

Anyone has any ideas or comments ?. For instance, options in AACW (regions pre-caching ? what does it really do ?); options in the virtual memory ?; options in the video driver ?

Good gaming

[Pocus]

hello,

Some informations to clear things up.

1. AACW is a Direct 3D game, as 2nd Manassas. You see a map displayed in a 2D fashion, but we are using Direct3D to do so. Why? Because there is not much choices now, DirectDraw (= DirectX in 2D) is heavily deprecated. Direct3D functions with textures = images processed in a specific manner to be displayed with the distorsion and angle you want. For AACW, you look at the textures from the top, so you see them 'flat', this is just a trick if you prefer, but conceptually, we are using DirecTX in the same manner as any other 3D engine.

2. The size of the textures: For DirectX an image is a texture. Regions are textures, interfaces parts are texture. When you crash, you crash because the video card fails to transform into a texture a big region, one which has a real big size, like 1024x1024 pixels for example. It does not really means that the video card or your system is out of memory ...

Why does your card crashes and not the others (the 99.5% others players). We don't quite know. Your card is supposed to bear textures up to a size of 4096x4096 pixels, and if you load the map, it works indeed: all regions, even the big ones are displayed, so your video card performed well.

Now the problem triggers when the card has to purge out of memory the normal regions and replace them by the winterized version. It fails here. Remains to see why... We are still using a DirectX 8 library, so it can be that the unique combination of your card, the driver, the operating system and your config don't meddle well with DirectX 8, which is some years old now.

=> This is why I told you that with the move to the new library (3 months from now, not earlier, sorry...), the problem can magically disappears.

I don't think there is a memory link of this order of magnitude in the AGE engine, it is under exploitation since february 2006.

To conclude: you should really switch to small textures, this will only remove from the display some oceans and will ease the load of your system. The option has been set for the handful of players that have the problem, so use it please

[Franciscus]

OK, if family allows ( ), will play this night with small textures. It really does not make any significant difference if it only affects some oceans.
Sincerely hope that works. If not, I will wait 3 months and play BoA and TC2M in the meanwhile.

Thank you very much for your patience and attention.


Good gaming.

[Franciscus]

Well, even with Max Textures size in the minimum, a crash (files sent via e-mail, again... Pocus must be starting to hate me ).

I guess I'll be back in 3 months... leure:

[tc237]

You get a crash when the game switches between normal and winter regions?
Can you edit any files so that the normal regions are displayed in place of winter regions?

[Pocus]

yes, there is the NoWinterBitmaps entry in the acw\settings\general.opt file to change.

Franciscus I'm sorry about these errors, I hope that playing without winter regions will be ok. If not we are still willing to refund you until we update to the new library.

[Franciscus]

Sorry, Pocus, but you are wrong !! I will not have to wait more 3 months, you will not have to refund me, but I think you will have more work.
My texture problem has been consuming me, but I put together some pieces:
1. It was not reproducible, in my computer. I mean, if after a crash I loaded the previous save, I did not had a crash on the same turn as before.
2. It usually happened when I played lots of turns. Not on the great campaign (I am just brushing it, and I presume that most players do not play more than 2 or 3 turns of the GC on each sitting). But I began to play Shiloh, and usually way past the official end, so, lots of turns.
3. More people seem to have similar problems, not just me (eg, Ray, aka LAVA and ASA, if I am correct).

So, with my idea of a kind of memory leak (or memory "fullness" ), I did:
1. Replayed again the last save of the last crashed game, but in each and every turn I saved, exited to the main menu and reloaded. No crash, more than 10 turns later
2. Then I again choosed the Very large textures option, restarted my PC, and began a new Shiloh campaign, again doing the same: in each and every turn saving, exiting to the main menu, and reloading. I sailed past all turns, with lots of snow (see image attached) and got tired in the summer of 1863 . And: no crashes.

So, I think that by unloading the memory by exiting and reloading in each turn, the insufficient memory errors go away. And this seems logical to me.

I may be wrong, but I will do it from now on. Maybe Pocus should revise the code (maybe automating this exiting and reloading in every turn) or at least add this option.

Now, flame away...

[Franciscus]

Well, more of a bump, really, but I have no NoWinterBitmaps entry on my general.opt file, so I can not change it to 1. Are we supposed to create it ?, or is my file corrupted ?

But in reality I do not think I will need it


Pocus, are you there ?...

[Pocus]

I'm rather unsure here, I prefer to wait one week or two, if you don't get any more crash, then I can take a look, but for now what you say is perhaps just plain luck, because code wise it does not makes sense:

When you reload a game, you flush the gameplay environment from any game related data, but you don't touch anything, texture wise. The flush of graphics is done at a lower level, independently, by a special module. So there is no link.

You can add the key if it is missing.

[Franciscus]

Well, Pocus, you got me a little confused. You mean to say that when we exit a game, and return to main menu the textures of the last turn stay in memory ?, even if afterwards we start a new game or load another different game ?. If yes, with what purpose, if I may ask ? Is it not a bit "inneficient", memory-wise ? Could we not have any option to avoid it ? (I mean, to unload the memory when we exit to the main menu ? Does this have any connection with the load textures at startup option ?).

As to my possible solution, of course I am not certain, and I may even regret my previous optimism. One thing about "bugs", as the name implies, is that they move a lot and tend to hide from humans .
What I will do is run a few games (maybe with AI off, to speed things a bit), saving, exiting and loading every turn. What I may also do is turn winterized images off and play as normal, but lots of turns in a row. If I get an insufficient memory error, then the problem will not be the winter textures per se, but I am speculating.
But due to "real-life" compromises I will be away from my home PC until monday at least. But I will then post feedbacks, either positive or proving that I am an idiot .

Thanks for your patience.

[Pocus]

this is because 95% of the textures of the game are the regions images, so there is no purpose in unloading them forcibly, the game has a caching system which will flush from memory all textures not used from quite some time, but only when needed (when memory usage is too high). This works fine for the vast majority of players.

I can force the flushing for you at the end of each turn, but it means you will have some hiccup when scrolling the map at each new turn, as the game will demands all images needed.

[Steven Hardy]

well id rathere deal with a quick hiccup reloading textures.


I am having same issues, where i get texture errors. I get texture errors on land, ocean texture errors, and summer and winter texture errors.

I think what happens is after certain length of time, it just bogs down and errors out.

sometimes i am able to play for 15 mins sometimes its an hour once i even got 2 hours into game, befor i got a random texture error.

I did manual input the missing DX9 file, I also reinstalled DX9 C which I had to do anyways to get, battlefield 2142 to work.

I wasnt sure so i gave the game admin privalges so that every time it runs it runs as Admin.

I am wondering what people are running who are having issue, maybe its a vista related issue with how vista handles memory loading of programs, example Vista uses, abilty to preload all files it thinks u may need into RAM.

so if you start up a game, and you start playing and it loads, up images or files, vista remembers these files that where used and then every time you start up game if you have 8 gigs or 6 gigs or 4 gigs it will fill up as much of the ram all of the ram with files it thinks you may need latter on to improve preformance of your game or program that you are running.

when you quit the program it dumps that information and loads up new files into ram, based on what you have used or done in the past when running your system.

so if game is saying dump file but visat saying it will need file latter on and vista and, game both say load bring texture back into the memory. ?

It just seems like this could cuase random conflicts, and errors ?

but then agin I am not a programer

my specs are

ECs KA3 MVP: Motherboard updated drivers othere day.

AM2 dual core 4400: CPU

DDR2 800 Mhz 6 Gigs: Ram

ATI x1950 XTX 512 MB Crossfire edition: Video Card updated drivers othere day.

Creative Labs XFI Fatal1ty: Sound Card

Vista: Operating System

[Franciscus]

Pocus, that's very interesting . If you are right (and you must, as you made the code...), my idea will fail. Nevertheless, if I am not completely wrong, I will gladly try that "flushing" after each turn, as I think it may solve this #%$" problem and I rather prefer hiccups to CTDs.

(pauses a bit, starry-eyes filled with images of a rich contract as Ageod beta tester. I will be rich, rich, I say )

Have a nice weekend.

[Franciscus]

As promised, here is the first feedback: I am an idiot

I tested my idea, saving and reloading each turn as usual on the Shiloh scenario, with max textures on, regions precahing and high memory off, and AI off. First couple of times I was happy, no problems, way past winter of 62/63, but on the third time, again an "insuficient memory" error .
Next I tried the NowinterBitmaps option that Pocus suggested, with the same settings, and it seemed more stable although also in one of 3 runs I got a critical error, that seems a scripting error (? - main log attached. If neede, I can email the saved game also). But I feel that the lack of easy visual clues as to the regions affected by snow detracts a bit from the strategic planning part of the game.

So, I will gladly try an option of "automatic" memory flushing after each turn, instead, and see if the game becomes more stable. I really believe that the cause of the problem somehow resides on the way the memory is handled by AACW on some systems, and I doubt that the change of graphics library will solve this in the long run.
I also would like to hear some feedback from other players, not only from the ones that experienced similar problems (Ray, ASA, Steven Hardy) but from others that might have experienced random CTDs but did not report them. Some one ??

Good gaming (if you can)

[Primasprit]

I have a system no so different from yours (Athlon 3000+, ASUS A7N8X-deluxe, 1.5GB Ram, ATI 1650, XPpro).
I can only report that it runs perfectly stable in this configuration.

If the "insuficient memory" error occur, take a look to the task manager before exiting the game, which process takes how much memory. Perhaps you can find a hint there.

[Franciscus]

well, Primasprit, I envy you. How much virtual memory have you? Any applications running on background ?

I will try to have a look at Task Manager on my PC later on, and will report it

[Primasprit]

well, Primasprit, I envy you. How much virtual memory have you? Any applications running on background ?

I will try to have a look at Task Manager on my PC later on, and will report it

Background tasks: Firewall (ZoneAlarm), McAfee VirusScan, ATI Control Center, Daemon Tools and WinAmp.

Graphic Card driver, Sound card driver and mainboard drivers (from the NVidia homepage) not older than 3 months.

Virtual Memory: 1536..3072 (manually set).

I run AACW today and played 12 turns (1864 full campaign), full AI, high memory. I scrolled several times over the whole map to fill the memory as good as possible.
AACW occupied at start 850 MB, while playing went up to a maximum of 950 MB and went down to about 850 MB again.

[tc237]

I have basicaly the same setup.
Is this a problem ?:
My CPU runs at 100% once the game loads to the main menu, and it stays at 100%.
Even if I do nothing it continues to run at 100% untill I exit the game completely.

[Pocus]

your CPU or your memory? CPU at 100% is normal for any directX game.

[tc237]

CPU

Ok, thanks.

[Pocus]

this is the way DirectX display things. OpenGL is less hungry on that, but OpenGL has the default of not being supported by Microsoft

note that AACW don't use CPU when minimized, as many games, but not all.

[Franciscus]

Well, I am back, the almost official "nut" of the forums . I thought about Pocus mention about memory "flush" and dug a bit on the general.opt file. In there, there is a line named MemUsage, that is =50 by default and =75 when High mem usage is checked. It is the % of hysical memory that AACW uses or something like that. So, I changed it to 10% (I have 2 G RAm and an 256 Mb graphic card as some of you might still remember ).
I played, checking Task manager. The mem usage of AACW kept more or less around 200 Mb (with default settings, it easily climbed to 800 Mb and more). When I scrolled or clicked in another region of the map (which provoked some delay (hiccup ?)), it went up, but never yet to more than 400 Mb. The total transaction load did not exceeded 1800 Mb (with the default settings, upwards of 2000, if it has any meaning).
More important to me, I sailed again past the dreadful winter of 62-63 around Shiloh with no critical error, with max textures on.
It may be yet chance playing a vile trick on me...

But, Pocus, could this be yet another solution, and maybe be causing the forced memory flush that you were talking about?

Please have patience with me, my squirrel friend

[Jacek]

Franciscus, when I read your posts I can't help wondering how my Mobility Radeon 7200 graphic card and old poor laptop succeeded in launching AACW.
I must be blessed by gods. Good luck in solving the texture problem!

[Pocus]

yes, this forces the flush. Basically you tell the caching system to flush out of memory bitmaps much more faster than before with such a low setting (I think you can up it to 25% perhaps?).

I would be rather happy if this fix would cure your problem, as you can expect.

[Franciscus]

Well, Pocus, it seems that putting 25 on the Memusage line is also stable, with almost non-noticeable "hiccups" while scrolling, clicking, etc. I made 2 test runs, through the winters of 62-63 and 63-64, with no crashes. I will keep it that way for now and hope that I am not only being very, very lucky.
Maybe you could add a "low memory usage" option on the main menu of AACW, and on the tooltip say that "this is for the one guy that has problems with the other options" .
I think that I am happy (the last "Franciscus bug" is the "no sound unless you start, quit and restart AACW, sir. Why, you ask ? Well, because..."), and also fed up with testings .
Now I will wait for the next update to restart playing (and definitely only start a full campaign with the HQ update - any news ?? )

On a side note to Primasprit:
when you say that your sound and mainboard drivers (Nvidia) are no more than 3 months old, what are you talking about ?. The Nforce2 and Nforce audiodrivers are old (2005). The last Asus Mainboard Bios update for A7N8X-E Deluxe is from 2004, and I will definitely not mess more with my BIOS. Do you have a dedicated sound card ?

Good gaming (finally ?)

[Primasprit]

On a side note to Primasprit:
when you say that your sound and mainboard drivers (Nvidia) are no more than 3 months old, what are you talking about ?. The Nforce2 and Nforce audiodrivers are old (2005). The last Asus Mainboard Bios update for A7N8X-E Deluxe is from 2004, and I will definitely not mess more with my BIOS. Do you have a dedicated sound card ?
Good gaming (finally ?)

My statement was in fact incorrect, what I meant was that I downloaded the newest driver packages recently. I did not check for the actual driver dates.
I do have a dedicated sound card, a Creative X-Fi (XtremeMusic).

[Pocus]

HQs: still some 3 weeks aways, I concentrated on some roadblocks before doing that.

[Franciscus]

OK. And do you have any ETA for the next "rooadblock jump" (ie, patch) ?

[Pocus]

wednesday if things goes well.

[Franciscus]

Thanks, Pocus. You're great.
Have a nice weekend.