BRS/1.03 First Impressions

[planefinder]

I'm sitting down today and playing my first Union game under BRS/1.03. I am playing the April 1861 Campaign, so I can't comment on the new scenarios, but I can definitely comment on how this scenario sounds with the 1.03 fixes.

Union balance = A LOT more balanced. Manpower, money, war supply feel just right - Union isn't hurting in any particular area, but needs to keep them in balance. Previously as Union, I never had to build structures for War Supply. Now I do. That's an improvement. At the same time, I can also drop brigades like I should as Union and don't feel outnumbered by the Confederacy. I also have enough room to conquer coastal forts as I need to. All in all, nice job.

Movement = A little different. First and foremost, I am seeing stack penalties actually affect movement time. Not sure if I just never noticed before, but CP penalties on movement times are now VERY noticeable. I personally like and don't mind this - again, feels like the game working as it's supposed to.

Battles = Battles seem a little bloodier/sharper. Could just be my play style, but they definitely feel bloodier. Also, I am noticing HUGE cohesion hits after battles now. Not sure if that's WAD or if something got tweaked. Occasionally I am finding that I'm down to 10% cohesion after a battle and can't follow up or complete a siege. Not sure if I like or dislike this. I do in general like that in the early war, cohesion is terrible after a battle. That's another "as it should be" based upon the historical trajectory of the Civil War. The fact that armies were so disorganized, even in victory was one of the things that prevented decisive victories early. However, when I get to the late game, I will be unhappy if the cohesion hits aren't reduced to reflect experience.

Just my thoughts so far...

[minipol]

I made it to 1863 as csa. Usually I've won already by now but not this time. Ai defends Washington with a 7500+ stack and has a 3500 + stack ready to attack HF. It invades a lot of coastal regions.
I do miss a more intense scorched earth possibility though. In Ky I invaded, took vincennes, and the depot next to it, even indy. I wish there was a quick way to torch the cities and infrastructure and then retreat and dig in.
In 1863, I had recruits enough, decent ws after building about 8 to 10 armories and arsenals. But money is a big issue. I get about 250 to 280 but that's about enough to pay for replacements and someytimes some extra troops.
It is pretty much mine. Took Denver. Rolla and jefferson are secured, as is cairo. But ai threathens with a big stack.
Ky is volatile. Lots of smaller divs around.
On the coast, I took Ft. Pickens after the union took his troops inland. Not necessary to do so as I took my big No stack to attack them. I also took Ft. Monroe. Wow super great to attack all those fleets.
My main threats by mid 1863 is holding on to KY and getting enough money to keep buying all needed replacements. I will need extra troops or I will have to retreat back into KY or divert forces from elsewhere.

[ArmChairGeneral]

What did you take Denver with, minipol?

[GraniteStater]

But money is a big issue.

Brigs. As the CSA, you really can't go wrong if you build nothing but Brigs. Relatively cheap, a fast build - G/G, Evade Combat, put 'em in the Boxes and bring 'em back in for the delights of Charleston or N. O. when the boys need it. Simple, don't need coddling. Build lots, as many as you can afford. If money is the crunch item, that's what they'll bring in more than WS.

Brigs are beautiful.

[minipol]

ArmChairGeneral, I took Denver with a stack of 6 rangers.
I have about 4 such stacks around there and the forts.
west of Jefferson (Morganville?) I have 3 stacks of inf/cav of about 200 to 300 power. Seems enough to
contain things.

GraniteStater, I thought brigs where more expensive than upping the industry?
the industry stays depending on where you build but brigs are vulnerable.
Athena has big power navel stacks around the blockade boxes.
My brigs are damaged every other turn (passive and avoid combat)

[GraniteStater]

I get good results with Brigs, myself. The point is, they can bring $$$. I don't think Industry produces more money for you, just WS.

Which is why a good CSA player defends New Orleans to the max he can, at least against a human. NO is your biggest $$ source (Virginia for warm bodies). If the Union captures NO & Richmond, well, that's a really big dent in Southern capabilities. Any good Union player has NO near the top of the To-Do list.

Others feel free to correct, but I believe Brigs are the way to go for more $$. Won't be huge (it's a proportional function, but not truly linear, there's too little return for each additional unit beyond a certain point), but every little shekel helps.

[Ol' Choctaw]

They are not as good or reliable as the used to be.

Each one costs $40 24WSU and 60 days to build. Good if you can build a bunch but it is a slow go. They get shot up pretty bad these days.

[GraniteStater]

Hmmm...in a CSA 1.02, I had something like a dozen or more, maybe 15, evadin' & fadin'.

By March 62, I would hazard that 24 WS is not tough at all, even for the South, at least if I recollect rightly. $40? Perfect for that leftover change in your wallet. Just keep building 'em. One a Turn, if you find those quarters in your couch cushions. I build a basic Brig fleet to start, very modest, but just keep adding. Even I have casualties, though maybe Athena likes my maritime mindset, I sure don't seem to pay too many pipers.

I think I've been getting $20+ a Box. Maybe the ROI is not great, but look at the opportunity cost, aka Better than Nuttin'.

It's the only way I know to increase $$. Now with 1.03, this crunch is probably alleviated.

[ArmChairGeneral]

According to the tooltips when opening up a city with existing Industry Armories produce $1 and Arsenals $2. This is not very much though, your break even times will be well over a year depending on the exact cost. In 1.02 as CSA I always went with 1 ironworks and then the rest brigs. Sounds like that will change tonight when I patch-up though!

[minipol]

You need several arsenals to have enough ws. My brigs are being battered. I will try to build more and see what happens. Some more cash is more then welcome.

[GraniteStater]

Some here advocate putting Brigs together into fleets for survival. I mix it up - some fleets, some singles. I use whatever frigates I get in these fleets and don't bother interdicting Union Shipping.

In a current CSA game (started until today as 1.02 - in Dec 62)) I must have about 15 brigs with Semmes and others with larger vessels. I'd have to look at it to see what the last return was.

[Ace]

Industry is the way to go. Brigs are too expensive. They bring on average about 1$ and 1ws, or 2$, or 2 ws, depending which is in greater need. At the cost of 40$, and 24 ws, you would need 32 turns just to refund their cost. Industry tooltip says 1$ for armory, but look at the F8 screen. 1$ is base production without loyalty and national morale modifiers. With highly loyal region, and high NM (>100), those armories will produce 2$, and arsenals will produce 3$ and 2ws instead of 2$ and 1ws. They are far better choice if you can defend them. If you build them only for your enemy to capture them, you are in big trouble.

[GraniteStater]

Industry is the way to go. Brigs are too expensive. They bring on average brings about 1$ and 1ws, or 2$, or 2 ws, depending which is in greater need. At the cost of 40$, and 24 ws, you would need 32 turns just to refund their cost. Industry tooltip says 1$ for armory, but look at the F8 screen. 1$ is base production without loyalty and national morale modifiers. With highly loyal region, and high NM (>100), those armories will produce 2$, and arsenals will produce 3$ and 2ws instead of 2$ and 1ws. They are far better choice if you can defend them. If you build them only for your enemy to capture them, you are in big trouble.

* Takes a few Turns to get all the builds up & running. Four turns and the brig puts to sea.

* So, I'm reading your post and anticipating a per unit ROI of 10, 8, 6 - uh, 2????? Two. A whopping two. Am I reading this right?

* All for a mere $225,000 and 40, 50, 60 WS. Now, c'mon sir, don't fall in love with your slide rule. Maybe I'm reading your analysis much too fast, but for the CSA, $50, $100K is not just laying around in the early game, AFAICS. Ever heard of start-up costs? We know what amortization is, yes?

* I advocate a modest, sensible, investment in Southern Industry at the start - then supplement with Brigs, chiefly for $$. If the CSA can get to a 'good' financial basis, then invest in more Industry, sure.

The CSA is neither a naval power nor a financial or industrial center. The former is why I advocate Nuttin' but Brigs on the high seas, anything else for blue water is an entire waste of time and resources, IMO. Contesting the rivers (and I mean contest, not an attempt to rule Ole Man River) and coastal harbors is a different case. Really, class, repeat after me - "The CSA is not a naval power."

$50, $60, $75K, or possibly more - start-up costs. AFAICS, Ace, my good man, I don't see these on your books. A modest, wise investment in Industry, sure - but that's what the Brigs are for, a nice supplement to help you get over that rough patch the first 18 months. Then see where you are and go from there.

Again, the increased $$ amounts for Treasury decisions probably obviates most of the CSA $$ crunch. Still, even with Factory Goosing for High NM and Loyalty, there's not many, it's not like a dozen at a time get built. Plus, have you noticed if the Union starts to roll, then your population centers, aka Cities, aka Where You Built the Stuff, well, they start to re-appraise the whole secession thing? So your local Loyalty starts to drag & is nothing to show to the neighbors. Urban crowds are fickle.

OK, let's build these game winners, uh, where? Houston? Oh yeah, Georgia, probably not a bad choice. Can't put everything in GA, though. TN? Not for long. Bye-bye, investments. VA, as long as you can hold it, which ain't bad, but if it starts to topple, well then, all that time & money is kablooey. The Southern player must realize that he's only renting the space until Uncle Sam wants the note redeemed. Yes, a real good Southern player can play the game at the Union's 40-yard line, but, even a so-so Union player is gonna start throwing some real gobsmack your way, eventually. The CSA either Wins Big & Fast and destroys Union NM, or hangs on for a decision on points. In the former, investing megabucks in Industry is a Waste of Time, the yields are amortized much too much on the back end. The Southern player can't know how Victory is going to come, or when, or how - he can try to play his cards right (strategy), but he can't dictate the calendar and possible Union counters. He has to be open to a Long War, so, yes, Industrialization is needed - but not at the sacrifice of other Risk Management strategies almost entirely.

Have a Project Plan, but adapt, no project or plan goes exactly as written. That's why we have Change Management. Brigs for Bucks are part of a healthy and flexible CSA approach.

ADDENDUM

Not to mention Opportunity Costs. While you're turning yourself into Wilhelmine Germany, you are not building those Inf^4+Cav+Arty brigades - which are the game winners for the South. As the Union, I don't even bother with Early Manassas, etc., and ignore the Union newspapers altogether - I just got tired of throwing away bluecoats at Longstreet and Co. there and Jackson's little troublemakers, too.

[ArmChairGeneral]

They bring on average brings about 1$ and 1ws, or 2$, or 2 ws, depending which is in greater need.

I think these numbers are per element. Brig units are built with two elements, so double the return. No matter what you do with Industrialization be sure to buy a couple of replacements early; two or three scripted brigs show up in the early years that are missing element.

I always group mine, and haven't lost one yet. Every 5-10 turns one of the stacks gets found and I take some hits distributed across the fleet, but I scamper back and repair and am good to go. Over the course of a year I end up buying another replacement or two for repair as chips get burnt. Don't forget to include these in a cost/benefit analysis. I use B/G posture, not sure if G/G would be better.

I count on some industrialization at gunpoint: St Louis, Cairo, and Louisville/Lexington KY have fallen early in most of my games, and if I have been demonstrating in them they provide a nice boost to my bottom line (Especially St. Louis with all those shipyards). The farm fields are worth a lot too, and if you have St. Louis and/or Louisville the ones in IL/IN/OH are vulnerable. Even if the loyalty is low you are at least denying them to the Union putting you ahead. My current game I slowed up the steamroll a little bit to let Athena finish building my new Arsenals in Cincinnati and Indianapolis . Obviously as the AI improves this will not be as effective....

[GraniteStater]

to let Athena finish building Arsenals in Cincinnati and Indianapolis for me

Such a thoughtful rebel.

[TheDoctorKing]

And, of course, historically the CSA concentrated on blockade runners, i.e. brigs, instead of developing its own industrial capacity. The blockade runners were mostly private, not government-owned, but I figure the player is spending a combination of state money and private capital on any sort of economic development decision. So the game ought to - and I think does - reward the historic strategy, especially if the US isn't making corresponding investments in blockading and running down blockade runners.

[Ace]

The historical strategy on importing war material failed, didn't it? Why should the game reward that strategy than.
To my understanding, armories, arsenals and ironworks you can construct are not made up by the game. These are actual producing structures that were set up during the war.

EDIT:
I see we cannot agree which is better. I think that is a good thing. Good strategy game is about options, it is never good to have one option or style of play that is way better than the others. .

[GraniteStater]

This is eminently true. I have been long winded, but merely wanted to say that I don't think there's any one set of actions that should be preferred absolutely. I started seeing some holes in my observations and assumptions right after I posted, regardless of their merits or weaknesses.

And we all should always remember - it's just a game.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Yes, it is nice to see that the same controversies we have always had around here are still alive and well: industry vs. brigs and artillery in corps vs divisions rage on after all these years. A lot of electronic ink has been spilled on how many guns to carry in a division for example, and the fact that these questions are still unresolved is, like Ace pointed out, one of the reasons this game is compelling. "No-one-way-to-win" was the explicit game-design philosophy behind Civilization IV, my second favorite game of all time (guess which is first!) and this philosophy is apparent here as well.

JUST a game? Just the most important game ever made, heralding sweeping social change across the globe, and ushering in a new era of prosperity, finally bringing Corps-level command structure and simultaneous turn processing to the huddled RTS masses crying out for it everywhere! Plus, it has a bigger map.

[GraniteStater]

Yes, if I could just found a Religion and build Happiness structures in CW2, I'd never leave the house.

[minipol]

I'm in early may 1864, as the CSA. I'll report what I've experienced so far.
I'll start with screenshots of how I'm doing overall:

Victory Points
[ATTACH]26711[/ATTACH]

Money
[ATTACH]26712[/ATTACH]

Conscripts
[ATTACH]26713[/ATTACH]

War supplies
[ATTACH]26714[/ATTACH]

Transport
[ATTACH]26715[/ATTACH]

Score


Replacements



As for the progress of my campaign:

- In the west, I've taken Denver, and all forts close to the Southern border.
I have 3 200+ stacks over there, and it rules.
As the CSA I try to inflict casualties on those smaller cav forces the Union sends out.
It works great.

Stand Watie


Humes


- Cairo was captured after the start of the war.
A few months back, I captured Saint Louis.
There was a big Union force there trying to attack Rolla and Jefferson City.
I held them off, built up my Army there, and moved the Army next to Saint Louis.
When the Union force moved, I attacked and took SL in 2 turns, capturing an Ironclad in the process.
The Union tried to recapture and lost some 15.000 troops in trying to do so.



- In 1861/1862 I moved forces from Cairo to Metropolis, Evansville, Rome and Albany to attack Louisville
by the time the Kentucky theater was open.
When it opened, I was close enough to take Louisville in 1862, just as Harodsburg and Lexington.
From there, a raid campaign was launched with these armies into Indianapolis and Illinois.
Vincennes, Columbus and Indianapolis fell, close by in IL, Salem was taken.
Also in IL, Springfield, Bath, Tolono and Bloomington were also captured at the end of that campaign.
Further West, Cincinatti and Dayton were taken.
I wish I would have had the option to burn the cities and everything in it, and then retreat.
Since we don't have this option, I tried to occupy them as long as possible.
Shame the depot in Indianapolis can't be destroyed, not even by a big army.

Rather quickly the Union reacted quite swiftly, having me withdraw back to the line
Salem - Vincennes - New Albany - Madison while Union troops briefly captured Lexington.
The campaign really hadn't done much damage except kill some Union troops.
There should be a mechanism in the game to give the CSA more options to really hurt the Union
with these kind of raids. CSA should be able to burn infrastructure.
The scorched earth cards don't seem to cut it.
I damaged some rails.
I reacted to the capture of Lexington, with sending withdrawing forces there to recapture it.
I relaunched an attack on Indianapolis, while wrecking havoc to rail lines and depots there with partisans.
My forces had to retreat before they did real damage. Luckily for the partisans and the partisan raid
to destroy some depots and rails.
It sufficiently hampered the Union operations to allow me to dig in and wait for the forces.

A couple of assaults where executed by the Union on Salem, Vincennes and Madison, with no effect.
One rather curious thing happened: the Union marched a few divisions south past Lexington to try
and reach Knoxville. Huh? Progress was slow, and on top of that, the weather changed. Snow...
All divisions were lost. I haven't counted but I guestimate the Union lost at least 20.000 men.
That was the reason why I would like to be able to track the deaths by attrition/illness.
They also count, and as the CSA, I try to kill 2 men for every CSA man so to level off the 2 to 1
advantage the Union has in men.



- Virginia
The VA theater is pretty much locked the same in 1864 as it was in 1861.
I dug in at Manassas, and took Alexandria a while later and dug in there.
To the North I'm dug in at Fredericksburg after I went north the wreck havoc beyond the lines.
The troop distribution was pretty even here, about 10.000 power total for the CSA, and 15.000 power
for the Union. Since 1863, I pretty much only can afford replacements, almost no new troops or very little.
It's a constant drain. I have conscripts enough through the drafts and mobilization totaling 1235.
WS is ok, but money is a real problem. I'm not sure if it's historical or not.

I can't even build support units like engineers or pontoons.
I wanted to block some strategic river points so I could use less troops to defend certain positions.
Not doable as I simply don't have the cash.
By the time you can print money again or get war bonds, I have to many troops that need replacements so most
of the money again goes to the replacements, and train/river transport that has lowered by then.

Good thing is the Union defended Washington with a lot of troops. As the CSA, I usually win the game end 1861,
or somewhere in the 1 part of 1862 by taking Washington and a few other strategic cities.
Not this time.
Another beef I have with this theater, is the low number of casualties when troops assault the multilevel trenches.
The Union attacked me with about 50.000 troops to my 55.000 troops.
I was entrenched at level 8 in Frederickstown. Joseph E. Johnston (3-3-5) leads the Army there.
Longstreet (7-5-7) was there as well with a big corps under the Army of Lee (7-5-7).
The general stats were slightly randomized.
I also had more artillery than the Union troops, better generals, entrenched and they had to cross the Monocacy river.
Result was 1500 casualties on my part, about 3500 for the enemy.
Seeing as everything was in my favor, they also had to walk to the battle, this is a ridiculous result.
I then redid the battle a few times and the casualties where about the same.
1 time, the Union even drove off my army ! Casualties were then about CSA 3000 vs. 10.500 Union.



- Seaboard
On the seaboard, I have made a couple of divisions in New Orleans. 3 times already, I had to divert these
to plug holes in KY or MO. Last time, I had to deal with an invasion via the Mississippi in Vicksburg.
The Union launched attacks on Galveston, New Orleans, Fort Jackson, Pensacola (from Ft. Pickes, which I then
took), Savannah, Charleston and Norfolk.
In took Ft. Monroe, and can now bombard the Union fleets.
I've had a couple of really big (750+ pw) fleets hit my forts. In the end, the garrison and fixed guns are destroyed.
The Union can take the beating, my forts and guns can't. I have again, no money to replace them.

- River
I assembled all river forces in a big stack with G. Hollins. It has 2 river ironclads, 1 cottonclad,
5 gunboat units (10 elements) and some transports.
I captured another river ironclad when I took Saint Louis.
I have 4 ironclads guarding New Orleans.
That's about it. No money to build anything. I only built the cottonclad.
Rest was via events.

- Naval shipping
I invested in industry form 1861 & 1862. I think I selected between 8 to 10 armories/arsenals options
in the first 2 years of the war.
I have 11 Brigs (I did count the individual elements, not the units) in the Gulf blockade,
4 Brigs in the Atlantic blockade.
In the shipping lanes R. Semmes has a fleet consisting of the CSS Florida, CSS Alabama,
Plymouth squadron, and 10 transport elements (5 transport units).
It hampers union shipping (25 money, 450 WS per turn), and brings in supplies.
The Gulf of Mexico has 6 transport elements (3 units).
Because of the low money, and the constant need for replacements, I can't add Brigs.

Conclusions and questions:
- Not enough money as the CSA to do things except buy replacements from 1863 onwards.
WS suffers too because of the drain, you can't by industry nor brigs to enhance the money flow.
It also seems all the brigs don't bring in a lot of money. It does feel correct though.
It doesn't seem worthwhile to invest in them as the return is about 11 money for 15 Brig elements.

- Because of the low money, I had an abundance of conscript companies.
In 1864, I even haven't used my mobilization option yet. I don't see the point, I can't build units anyway.

- Casualties are simply not high enough when attacking multilevel entrenchments.
If the Union decides to attack a larger, more powerful, entrenched and better lead force while crossing a river,
a 2 to 1 casualty rate is way to low.

- I wondered if it would be useful to build a redoubt in a strategic position like Fredericktown or Saint Louis for
instance? Or is hiding a full corps in there not practical?
If you have a redoubt with forces in there, and troops sitting outside. Do the redoubt forces also help the forces
outside when they are attacked?

- I have transports in the gulf of Mexico and shipping lanes to bring in supplies. Not sure if this is a good move,
and if it works. I think it does.

- Not being able to promote leaders when they are inactive really bites. It happens more then not, that next turn,
when the troops are active again, that you can't select promote anymore. The opportunity is gone.
I really hope this gets fixed.

- The Union (AI set at Lieutenant) does do several invasions where I have to divert troops to deal with them.
It makes the game more interesting. It does a poor job of defending or attacking the far west, and IT.

- I saw a couple of death marches. It would be better to really stop the Union from attempting those.
Do not wander across the wilderness in KY or WVA.

- The Union fleets are big and powerful, as they should be.

- When dragging a unit to a region, it might happen the unit passes a enemy position that is able to fire at you.
A lost a couple of captured supply wagons this way before I realized it.
It happens when you select transport by rail or river. It really should try to avoid these kinds of routes.

[Pocus]

I did not read all details here, but I saw you say you can't promote when not active, which is weird has I checked the code and I see no such limitation. I would need confirmation from others here.

[minipol]

Pocus, I mentioned that earlier. When the stack the general in is frozen (red bar through right corner), the promote option is greyed out as are the other buttons.
I think only enter structure is selectable then.

I checked, the red bar means fixed.
Then you can 't promote, and as I said, only enter structure is available.
Look at the screenshots:

[ATTACH]26716[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]26717[/ATTACH]

Even if you can promote, the promote option isn't available.
I might have to do with the general that was up for promotion, was part of a stack. Normally you have to move the general out of the stack to promote him.
But if the stack is fixed, you can't drag him out of the stack in order to promote him. That might be the reason why you don't see that reflected in the code.

[Pocus]

fixed is different from inactive... I guess your stack is now fixed because you play with hard activation?

[minipol]

AI activation is set to low. I've had this happen to me with patch 1.02 and now with patch 1.03.
Mind that this is still from the same game. So my current game was started with patch 1.02, installed BRS, and the behavior was the same.

As I said, it's probably because you can't get the general out of the stack when the stack is fixed.
Then you don't see the promote button. If I was allowed to get a general out of such a stack, the promote might work.
Even so, I guess it's reproducible in a small scenario where a general is close to promotion or even by editing the db so the general
has a very low seniority?

Edit: on the game settings, activation rule is set to hard, i.e. the unit can't move if it's not activated.
This disallows getting a general from a stack, so no way to promote him unless he's the stack leader.

[Pocus]

The problem is more about Hard activation, that will prevent also building a depot, etc.

[minipol]

I can understand that hard activation disallows building a depot, but it should still allow promotion. But you have to be able to get the general out of the stack in order to promote. How are you going to solve this?

[Pocus]

We will discuss that with betas, first.

[minipol]

Ok, thanks for the feedback. It would also be ok if the general was able to promote after the stack becomes unfixed.
I had a general that was still able to promote afterwards, and a couple that couldn't anymore, as the seniority had gone up again I guess.