+1lodilefty wrote:...or keep playing your current game, which has many fixes and improvements since the original release!
Baris wrote:Respect of the efforts of those who have the will and the knowledge to craft RUS in new shape(including AI) please ! Fatal years better simulated Caucasians and over all historical situation in RCW. We all looking forward more historical simulation,that's the pure and naive intention. No harm or harsh critique intended.
Narwhal wrote:In my opinion, the best solution would be to fall back on "history" but to make Finland units static until 2 or 3 turns after the War Declaration. In addition, once Petrograd has fallen, you can give the Reds an option to peace out ONLY against Finland
Another solution which could be combined is to make Finland an independant faction and tweak its AI so it does not seek to go beyond its historical "Greater Finland"
"Another person on another website" discarded the solution because it would lead to both White and Finnish faction doing uncoordinated offensive on the Petrograd region, which is an issue,
, you can create an event "Red Peace with Finland" :
: the Reds can recover their best city even if defeated militarily by the new faction... and the Finland declaration of War can bite the Whites back, making it a dangerous option.
If Reds were desperate and Petrograd under Finnish control, we can imagine that's the sort of peace treaty the Red would have been OK with... especially if it means sending the Finnish to attack the North-Western whites to get Murmansk back.
Narwhal wrote:The problem is that Finland has so much punch that if it intervenes, the Red is doomed.
Narwhal wrote:The problem is that Finland has so much punch that if it intervenes, the Red is doomed. The previous RUS version "solution" was to inflict a massive NM penalty when Finland joins war, but even this was not enough and it was homeruled in many case.
The current solution is purely non-historical BUT balanced, Ithink. FY tries to balance it by giving it a very low chance to success (the issue being : if Finland does join the war we are back on "unbalanced" I suppose - never used the option in FY).
In my opinion, the best solution would be to fall back on "history" but to make Finland units static until 2 or 3 turns after the War Declaration (call that mobilization, Red strikes blocking the armies, ...) so the Red can rush troops in defense of Petrograd. In any case, I believe Finnish forces are maybe too powerful, but this may be historical. In addition, once Petrograd has fallen, you can give the Reds an option to peace out ONLY against Finland (a variation of what I describe below - see te end of the post).
Another solution which could be combined is to make Finland an independant faction and tweak its AI so it does not seek to go beyond its historical "Greater Finland" (which basically would encompass Petrograd as a "guarantee" on Ingria, and Karelia). This way, the White player would have an event which would significantely bother the Reds, without it being able to deliver a killing blow (it won't go until Moscow) and without direct control on it. "Another person on another website" discarded the solution because it would lead to both White and Finnish faction doing uncoordinated offensive on the Petrograd region, which is an issue, but not as bad as the current situation in Vanilla RUS.
If you are feeling especially vicious and it is in your "patcher" mandate, you can create an event "Red Peace with Finland" :
Conditions :
Finland controls Petrograd
Low Red NM
High Finnish NM
Red is at peace with Finland,
Red concedes Karelia up to Murmansk
Finland gives back Petrograd
Finland at war with Southern Whites if Murmansk under White control. Peace by automatic event when Murmansk falls to the Finns, closing the entire region out of the game.
Advantage on this event : the Reds can recover their best city even if defeated militarily by the new faction... and the Finland declaration of War can bite the Whites back, making it a dangerous option.
The only strategical area for the Red in the whole Estearn Karelia region would have been the port of Murmansk and the whole railroad access to it. The proximity with Petrograd would not have been important - it would not have been closer than the "starting" border. If Reds were desperate and Petrograd under Finnish control, we can imagine that's the sort of peace treaty the Red would have been OK with... especially if it means sending the Finnish to attack the North-Western whites to get Murmansk back.
Yes, Murmansk was an ethnic Russian city, but founded in 1916 by settlers... The rest was in large parts Sames and Finns.
That could create an issue if the Reds then attack along Karelia, with both factions being "in competition".
If you don't believe the Finns could attack the English (or the Reds) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viena_expedition (mitigeant : that's 1918 - when the Finns were seen as Germany's puppets ; they might not have provoked the English after the Central Power defeat).
Other links :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_%28Russian%E2%80%93Finnish%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunus_expedition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_Uprising
RebelYell wrote:Petrograd is in middle of Ingria but i can tell that historically there is no chance that Finland would have tried to claim that land.
Finnish whites as nationalists would have taken Karelia but not the Russian population of Petrograd.
There is no such scenario where this is possible, ever.
There where talks of a united Finland and Estonia in the nationalist movement, all the tribes in the same country.
Narwhal wrote:
Could the Finns in real life actually occupy Petrograd even if no Red army was on the way is another issue.
lodilefty wrote:I'm not a historian.
...but game balance may also be a factor...
What should it be? Please include references with your recommendation.
lodilefty wrote:For Finland option to appear for Southern Whites choice:
6. REDs must not have already declared war on Finland
7. A probability roll must then be passed [5%]
Thus, Finland can be invited, but only in a situation that is very close to historical [Balts and Yudenich possibly threarening Petrograd]
Constructive comments welcome!
lodilefty wrote:This change at least holds out a small chance to alter history.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the goal was to create an enjoyable game with enough variability to want to replay scenarios, based on history.
ERISS wrote:6. I don't understand why Finland can not join Whites if Finland is at war with Reds. On the contrary it should help no?
7. The probability seems very low, but I don't know about Fin politics.
At least, if that's gameplay-wise, rarity is not a solution to an unbalanced feature (if unbalanced) (Nobody will sacrifice for the chance or maybe if desperate, or it will just be a lucky big bonus for an already good player):
So in multiplayer games, there may be houserule which forbid this feature.
I think that's a good feature, but we (err, you) must be carefull about how it is done.
Sure!
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