Naval questions and frustration

[moni kerr]

A picture from my recent tourney game where I won this naval battle off the Carolina coast.



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As you can see there were Union troops on board.

There was a Union force in Wilmington NC, but because of developments elsewhere I thought there was a good chance they would be reinforced so I moved my fleet to intercept. However, those units were not reinforcements, they were the force that started the turn in Wilmington!

Curiously there were no transports in Wilmington at the beginning of the turn, so you might ask as I did; how did they get on board. Apparently ground units can target a naval transport and thus board it in a coastal region without the inconvenience of waiting for them to enter the port and dock! I had no idea that 19C era men, horses, canons and wagons were capable of walking on water. Imagine that! Crazy but true, I tested it.

But I'm not done yet. You might be wondering what happened to those 5000+ Union soldiers listed as taking part in the battle? Apparently nothing much. Although I captured all the Union transports there were no soldiers or equipment anywhere on them. That whole Union force seems to have cleverly used the ruse of surrendering the transports to walk on water unnoticed to Onslow NC. A 100% MC region for the CSA a condition which should preclude a retreating force from going there.

Anyway, I feel cheated here. Those Union troops should be captured or be severely decimated by the combat, but they look totally unscathed.

And Longshanks, can you ban this boarding of transports at sea? Its gamey to the point of being an exploit.

Arrgh, my screenshot doesn't post.

Got it now

[Longshanks]

I posted the battle report screen shot on the Tourney Brackets page.

I assumed that Rattler was landing the troops there anyway - it was an area where he had other troops, but your interpretation is different. Perhaps Rattler can clear that up.

No, I have no control as host over such matters as troops that walk on water. I'm like the war games referee in the Dirty Dozen movie who said "I'm just here to watch. I can't interfere!" (I think that was before they pushed him off the ambulance.)

Perhaps Lodilefty can shed some light on what happened. (If you need the files, I can send.)

As far as feeling cheated ... well, them's strong words podner. Don't you just plan on killing them in NC anyway? Perhaps they DID drown and they're zombie troops! It's a very odd occurrence - first, I've never seen transports get captured, and second, how the heck DID they get off those boats?

[moni kerr]

Why not a house rule against it?

There are house rules that forbid action, like raiding without leaders in non border states.

[Longshanks]

Ok, it's against the tourney rules to allow the game to conduct an action over which the player has no control other than he moved the units there in the first place not knowing what the outcome of his action would be.

Is that kind of what you were shootin' for there?

Seriously, I don't see what we could do along those lines. It's a weird event, but to be an exploit, it'd have to be repeatable and under control of the player, both of which are doubtful.

[moni kerr]

Ok, it's against the tourney rules to allow the game to conduct an action over which the player has no control other than he moved the units there in the first place not knowing what the outcome of his action would be.

Is that kind of what you were shootin' for there?

Seriously, I don't see what we could do along those lines. It's a weird event, but to be an exploit, it'd have to be repeatable and under control of the player, both of which are doubtful.

It's repeatable, I tested it.

Park a transport in a coastal region or move it there, then take a land unit and target the transport. The unit will 'walk' over the water and board the transport.

This means that units can board a transport without the transport needing to go into the port, thus bypassing the potential delay that occurs for naval units leaving port.

[rattler01]

Let me shed some light on what happened.

The Union force under Hunter was not ordered to board those transports they were under orders to Rivierine Transport off the coast and wait as a seperate stack.

I am guessing the same mechanic that forces land units to land when confronted with naval units was used. I see this happen all the time in the TN theater on rivers. So those men were never on board the transports, just in the same region.

What is weird is why they went to Onslow region where I had 0% MC instead of back to Wilmington were I had 100% MC. And how my battle report was different.

[lodilefty]

Save please, but it sort of sounds WAD.

What could be construed as 'gamey' is use of Riverine transport as a 'holding bin' in a Coastal Region. Would you sit off Cape Fear in a Mississippi SideWheel Steamboat? Not me!

I'm interested in why retreat did what it did,

The transport/off shore loading is all WAD: It takes 5 days or so to get the troops to a ship offshore. This is 'allowed' so troops can evac 'over the beach' if needed [Dunkirk?]

[rattler01]

Save please, but it sort of sounds WAD.

What could be construed as 'gamey' is use of Riverine transport as a 'holding bin' in a Coastal Region. Would you sit off Cape Fear in a Mississippi SideWheel Steamboat? Not me!

I'm interested in why retreat did what it did,

The transport/off shore loading is all WAD: It takes 5 days or so to get the troops to a ship offshore. This is 'allowed' so troops can evac 'over the beach' if needed [Dunkirk?]

They were evaced out of Wilmington cause I knew a force over 10x as big was 2 regions away. The original idea was to hit a fort after Wilmington fell. I didn't realize you could load onto ships that way.

[Captain_Orso]

Oh my goodness, gentlemen, I've been doing this for years. It's called interception. Drag the land force onto the fleet with transport capacity to accept it and the land force will embark using the fleet's by-boats, or what ever generic, small, crafts--the same as you do while invading, only in reverse. You can also give the fleet orders in the same turn and as soon as the land units have embarked, the fleet will set sail.

You can also do this if the fleet is not adjacent to the fleet, but the land units will start moving toward the fleet as soon as the turn starts, even if it would make more sense for the land units to wait for the fleet to move adjacent first and then attempt to embark.

I'm not sure how combat works with land units on generic river transports, but that they retreat from a superior naval force doesn't surprise me

[Longshanks]

Ummm.... to me the unusual part was the capture of transports. At first it appeared that they were loaded, but Rattler cleared that up: they weren't. The land units in question were instead using riverine movement in the same region, hence they were sent back to shore in the face of enemy vessels. Sounds like WAD to me.

Loading land units without a port is indeed "old hat" (although apparently the possibility of doing so is not well known). Capturing ships at sea, especially transports, is more like 1562 than 1862 I think. I for one have never seen that before (on rivers, yes, but not at sea).

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

I've seen it for awile. It's rare. But that's what you're gonna get sending transports around unescorted. I didn't realize until just recently that you didn't have to escort the transports in the shipping box.

[Captain_Orso]

I've had a fairly large fleet of transports--about 8 or 10 or so--get gobbled up by an about equally sized fleet of steam frigates and frigates.

What irritated me so much was that they just disappeared; they were gone; they ceased to exist as if they had been swallowed whole by the sea; they were ex-transports

Days later I found them with the capturing fleet, looking kind of sheepish; mystery solved. Oh, and this was on the open sea.

For reality's sake, I don't image that a frigate or steam frigate would have a hard time boarding and capturing an almost unarmed transport, many of which were actually privateers.

So my only issue is with not getting a message.

[GraniteStater]

I've seen it for awile. It's rare. But that's what you're gonna get sending transports around unescorted. I didn't realize until just recently that you didn't have to escort the transports in the shipping box.

I seem to get fewer merchants sunk if I put in escorts - sometimes up to six, if Semmes is about.

But maybe it's me.

[Chuske]

I had something odd happen when transporting a division by sea with heavy escort. Confed navy got lucky and found my convoy at sea and with a tiny force somehow got amongst my fleet and seemed to damage mainly the division units rather than my ships, I lost a battery and had hits on various infantry units before his ships were forced to retreat with heavy damage.

My only explanation is that the division commander Hooker had decided he was now godlike and no longer merely a dictator and that he and his division could walk on water. So keen were they to fight I believe they may just have done that....

[Carpetbag]

Greetings Chuske, what you were describing below


[attach]17371[/attach]

[Chuske]

Ha yes thats the one. I misread the report I thought you had 6 brigs not 63! Looks like I was lucky not to get nibbled to death!

Kinda explains how you could get at my transports if you had 65 ships....

[Longshanks]

Dang, that's a lot of brigs. That's an NFL record number of brigs. You da brig-daddy! Stand back, ya'll, don't touch da man's brigs!

Seriously, I'm impressed that you stuck with brig building AND stuck them all under Semmes, who must have sent a telegram to Sec. Stanton saying: Stay Outta My Way!

[Carpetbag]

A few trns earlier they were all blockade runners operating in the Caribbean.

[Chuske]

Reckon Carpetbag managed to get a deal on brigs, buy 1 get 62 free?

He's certainly given me a few naval shocks. As well as amassing a large army he's built lots of ocean and river ironclads. It's my first PBEM (and first full campaign) I had no idea the Rebs could muster a large navy and army so early....

Anyway I'll find a way to hang in this battle as long as he doesn't suddenly find a way to build tanks in 1863

[rattler01]

With that many Brigs he has to have printed money nearly every turn. Which means massive inflation already. His artillery must also be hurting using all those WS. Also it means he probable hasn't tried to industrilize the south. So get that blockade value into the 80's and watch him starve from lack of supplies because brigs have no effect on supplies and ammo.

@ Carpetbag: Brigs in blockade boxes go off of a curve, so your handicapping yourself not dividing them between boxes when not pwning USA navy.

[Chuske]

I'm wondering how best to deal with Carpetbag's carpet brigging of my blockade and shipping boxes.

-Will the brigs get captured by the blockade fleets or do I need to counter with faster ships like brigs of my own or frigates? Should the brig hunters be in separate stack?
-What posture is best for blockade fleets with lots of CSA brigs blockade running? I'm guessing I have to stay defensive to avoid cohesion loss?
- In my shipping box do I need naval ships in the same stack as the transports to protect them or just in the box? Again posture advice?

[Jim-NC]

The brigs will not get captured. The best you can do is sink them.

I would keep a few brigs with the blockade fleet (they help with detection of enemy ships).

Keep your fleet in defensive or passive in the blockade box (the game engine handles the combat).

I would keep a few warships with the transports as if there is any combat, the damage is spread out among the ships taking part. The warships can take more damage without sinking.

Also, if transports need to move back to port, you should have a warship with them in case they run into enemy ships outside the blockade boxes.

He has to sacrifice somewhere. You need to determine where he has sacrificed, and hit him there. (it could be navy, army size, army replacements, unit type, industrialization, RR or somewhere else). By unit type, I mean he may have scrimped on a particular unit type.

Good luck.