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Captain_Orso
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Come One, Come All! See the amazing disappearing Fleet!

Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm

I 'tried' to run a (Union) Fleet of three River Gunboat Squadrons past (Confederate held) Fort Henry/Fort Donaldson by setting them to the 'Passive'/'Retreat' and 'Evade Fight'.

After the turn was calculated a line in the 'Mail Box' stated that the Fleet in question was engaged from Henry/Donaldson and took 19 hits(!!) :blink:

After that the Fleet just ceased to exist. There was no report what-so-ever of ships being sunk, which I occasionally get when I lose a transport in the 'Union Shipping Box'. The replay just showed the Unit Icon moving up the Cumberland and then just suddenly disappear, like happens with enemy units that leave my detection. I guess my detection doesn't extend to under water :wacko:

Actually when a transport gets sunk in the Atlantic I get two lines in the mail box. Something like:

27/96: You lost a ship in the Union Shipping Box.
28/96: A transport was sunk in the Union Shipping Box.

Is this all normal?

enf91
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:05 pm

1. You didn't actually lose the ship. It's just an event that fires.
2. River fleets don't get special "we got sunk" events.

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Captain_Orso
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:19 pm

Thanks for your reply enf91.

enf91 wrote:1. You didn't actually lose the ship. It's just an event that fires.


You mean in reference to the transports? What, is the message just to excite me? :bonk:

enf91 wrote:2. River fleets don't get special "we got sunk" events.


:thumbsup: ........... :blink: (no comment)

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DaemoneIsos
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Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:24 pm

I have found Land vs. Water battles to be extremely one-sided. Even with a fleet of 10 frigates, it is devastating to be hit by a single land battery. A 20:1 ratio of hits is not unusual, even when the "power" numbers are reversed (e.g., 20-power land battery vs 400-power fleet).

This effect is not limited to the giant naval guns: it is true of any sufficiently entrenched land battery I have encountered.

My personal feeling is that this pattern is out of kilter: The Virginia is always obliterated at Ft. Monroe, which is absolutely unrealistic. Of course, the Monitor is obliterated at Norfolk too.... I don't know if armored frigates fare any better.

Anyone else have different experience?
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Chaplain Lovejoy
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:59 am

DaemoneIsos wrote:I have found Land vs. Water battles to be extremely one-sided. Even with a fleet of 10 frigates, it is devastating to be hit by a single land battery. A 20:1 ratio of hits is not unusual, even when the "power" numbers are reversed (e.g., 20-power land battery vs 400-power fleet).

This effect is not limited to the giant naval guns: it is true of any sufficiently entrenched land battery I have encountered.

My personal feeling is that this pattern is out of kilter: The Virginia is always obliterated at Ft. Monroe, which is absolutely unrealistic. Of course, the Monitor is obliterated at Norfolk too.... I don't know if armored frigates fare any better.

Anyone else have different experience?


Same experience. 1.14c.

enf91
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:48 am

Well, in all fairness, consider the ship is bouncing up and down in the water and firing at a target either heavily dug in or inside tough fortifications while itself being a huge wooden target. The damage ratios might be a little out of whack, true, but the land artillery should have an advantage.

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W.Barksdale
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:29 am

enf91 wrote:Well, in all fairness, consider the ship is bouncing up and down in the water and firing at a target either heavily dug in or inside tough fortifications while itself being a huge wooden target. The damage ratios might be a little out of whack, true, but the land artillery should have an advantage.


Hmm, I have to disagree here. What about the battle at Pamlico Sound where Flag Officer Stringham shot to pieces Fort Clark and Fort Hatteras. I don't think he suffered a single casualty because his rifled guns just sat outside the range of the inferior rebel artillery.

Another example, Port Royal Sound where Admiral Du Pont took Fort Bory AND Fort Walker, with 9 frigates and 5 light gunboats using the now famous expanding ellipse tactic. Just amazing stuff. The invention of the steam ship really changed this type of warfare.

Perhaps these are things that could be modelled into AACW2 if AGEOD will bless us with another wonderful game. :coeurs:
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enf91
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:47 am

True, but as you mention, the commanders sat outside the forts' gun range. In rivers, that's not possible, and these aren't real admirals we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if bombardment used the same code as actual battles.

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GraniteStater
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:11 am

No, the modelling is off - it's too punishing. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen the same results myself, not anywhere to the degree described. If this is the case, though, it is excessive. Consider:

* Foote (I think it was Foote) reduced Ft. Henry practically by himself. The site was largely to blame, not being high enough above the river.

* Farragut ran past the mouth of the Mississippi and the entrance to Mobile Bay and I don't recall reading about any bloodbaths suffered by the US Navy.

* Porter(?) ran past Vicksburg with minimal losses, IIRC.

In general, for about three centuries, the situation favored the land guns. Just to throw out a wild guess, though, I would hazard that shipborne ordnance had reached a stage by mid-19th century that made it possible to give a good account of itself.

Don't forget that it's not a sure thing for the land ordnance. Ships don't "bob up and down", really, unless the weather is really rough and if so, then the operation would probably be scrubbed. Bear in mind that ship's companies practice. They're quite used to the conditions and know how to take their circumstances into account. Also, their targets aren't moving.

It shouldn't be as one-sided as described. Again, I haven't really experienced losses of this magnitude at all.
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:42 am

It is much better now that the forts actually *sometimes* are a danger to ships. Before they were just a joke, a sad little joke.
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:21 am

Jarkko wrote:It is much better now that the forts actually *sometimes* are a danger to ships. Before they were just a joke, a sad little joke.


You got that right, after reading this I decided to run Fort Henry&Fort Donaldson, with Porter then Foote. Both were set to attack, I don't remember if I had evade set, although I usually do.

Porter's lone ship was sunk, on his pass he suffered 12 hits and returned 3, on the return trip he was hit for 12 and returned none, he's injured for 5 turns, ouch.

Foote on the other hand, (get it :D , (the Cubs had a pitcher Hands and a catcher Foote). Anyway, he had 1/light warship, 3/gun boats & 2 transports. On his pass he was hit for 17 and didn't manage a hit, on his return to Cairo he suffered 13 more hits and returned only 6, he lost 2 ships and half his men and cannons. He did make it back to Cairo though, I think I will try armoured Frigates next.

I do have a nice sized fleet in Maryland waiting for Porter, but he won't make that run agin or will he?

After further reading, DaemoneIsos and his Frigates I will not enter these waters again, unless of course I can manage to take these forts. I have never ever attempted this, 63' maybe.

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:23 pm

Right after Ft Henry though, Foote got pretty banged up bombarding Ft Donelson and had little to no effect on that engagement aside from all the noise.

Those exceptions that you guys have listed aside (new orleans and so on), weren't forts (coastal, river, etc) generally bad news bears for passing vessels? :confused:

I suppose damage dealt by shore based artillery can be a bit lopsided though.

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:01 pm

Big Muddy wrote:*chop* I think I will try armoured Frigates next.

I do have a nice sized fleet in Maryland waiting for Porter, but he won't make that run agin or will he?


Don't bother. Armored frigates can't sail up the Mississippi that far. Your other route, up the Hudson, over to the Great Lakes, and down Illinois, crosses about 30 shallow-water regions, and frigates of any type can't sail in water shallower than coastal regions.

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:29 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:
You mean in reference to the transports? What, is the message just to excite me? :bonk:


I spent a lot of time trying to figure out which transport I had lost before I came to the conclusion that all you loose is some money and WS. :bonk:

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Chaplain Lovejoy
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Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:28 am

enf91 wrote:Well, in all fairness, consider the ship is bouncing up and down in the water and firing at a target either heavily dug in or inside tough fortifications while itself being a huge wooden target. The damage ratios might be a little out of whack, true, but the land artillery should have an advantage.


According to Lincoln and His Admirals, this was a big question the USA naval leaders had at the outset. Which would have the advantage, ships or shore batteries? They didn't know. Only experience would tell.

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Captain_Orso
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Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:21 pm

A couple of things to note:

1a. When Foote bombarded Fort Henry, it was half under water, being flooded by the Tennessee,
1b. It was badly situated, being too low and not taking advantage of higher ground.
1c. It was never completed.
1d. IIRC none of the batteries there had any rifles.
1e. Foote attacked with all 6 River-Class ironclads that he had in his command.

Still it took hours before Fort Henry was reduced and Grant could just walk in.

At Fort Donaldson
2a. The fort was completed and had a better configuration, using the higher ground available.
2b. The CSA had a single (IIRC) 9lb. rifle, the only cannon to do any damage to the ironclads.
2c. Foote was not on-hand, having being wounded at Henry by a hit on the pilothouse of his boat.
2d. Only four of the ironclads were present at Donaldson, plus a couple of wooden gunboats firing at long-range as to not get within range of Donaldson's batteries.
2e. Although all of the ironclads were eventually 'knocked out' at Donaldson, far from being sunk, by plunging fire from the 9lb-er rifle hitting the un-armored decks and damaging the engines, the engagement ran for several hours (I'd have to look it up to say how many, but I'm too lazy ATM:neener :)

My points are
3a. How effective a fort was at engaging naval targets was mainly dependent upon the type of weapons available compared to the armor. Smooth-bores just din't do the trick, they just bounce off the armor.
3b. Just one rifle, like at Donaldson, firing at a rate of about one round every two minutes, does not have a heck of a lot of time to engage a boat doing it's best to pass by as quickly as possible and not get caught up in a fire-fight, meaning armored boats should be able to push past a fort like Donaldson almost with impunity, where as wooded boats would probably take a beating, as every cannon in the fort would be effective to some extent,
3c. I would have to look-up where in Shelby Foote's The American Civil War it is stated, but basically the lesson learned about an engagement between armored war-ships mounting powerful naval cannons vs older infantry cannons build really to engage infantry on the field was that the fort lost. Numerous examples reside in the history books. Farragut made numerous examples of this lesson. Remember, his cannons outnumbered by far those in the forts he attacked.

What made the great difference was
4a. The ships attacking harbors and forts were steam-ships. They were not restricted by the wind anymore and could position themselves to where they wanted to be, and maneuver at will.
4b. The navy, having always been the technology freaks, were keen to mount the most powerful guns they could on their most modern warships. They were big and heavy ships (for the time) and were not bobbing about like corks in a bucket. Were not talking about battles the open-seas, but on rivers, harbors, bays and inlets where the water is very smooth.
4c. The ship's crews were highly trained on the average and could engage land targets probably better than the other way around. Remember, they trained to fire from a moving gun-platform. The artillerymen manning the coastal defenses of the time probably had very little to no opportunity to practice on moving targets.

I'm not saying that ships should always win in a battle between shore mounted batteries and ship mounted, but that the factors which make a difference should be taken into account, which at the moment does not appear to be the case.

If I understand correctly, all cannons, be they 6lb.ers or Rodmans or Dahlgrens are all fudged into one factor regardless of the target, and all targets are fudged together into one factor regardless of gun-type. Armor and penetration play no role in it at all other than to treat armored vessels as if they had more hit-points, which is not realistic. They don't. It is just much harder to make a hit effective, because it must penetrate the ship's armor to have effect. Once it does penetrate it's effectiveness is the same as if the ship were not armored at all.

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Plunging fire

Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:13 pm

Foote uses this phrase often, and by the looks of the iron clad's wooden deck on the park sign, such fire would have been murderous.
"Now, back to Rome for a quick wedding - and some slow executions!"- Miles Gloriosus

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Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:57 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Captain Orso:

Have you ever been to Fort Donelson? I was just there about 3 months ago. The park service there is going to great lengths to recreate the batteries and their emplacments. There was a lot more than one 9lb Rifle in place there at the time of the encounter.

Nope, never been there. I live in Germany for the last 26 years, but the idea of taking a long vacation and touring the battlefields I've read so much about intrigues me more and more.

I didn't mean to insinuate that there were no other cannons present at Donelson*, only that there was only one effective vs the ironclads.

I have to correct that now, as I've just gone back to the book and re-reading the pages you mention below I note that the hit on the Carondelet which put her boiler down on the first day she appeared alone to reconoiter Donaldson, was from a 128-pounder rifle. But note that this rifle "was spiked by its own priming wire, which an excited cannoneer left in the vent while a round was being rammed. This left only the two short-range 32-pounder carronades in the upper battery and the 10-inch columbiad and eight smooth-bore 32-pounders in the lower; one fixed target opposing four in motion, each of which carried more guns between her decks than the bluff had in all, plus the long-range woooden gunboats arching their shells from beyond the smoke-wreathed line of ironclads" very early in the battle.

*I've been spelling it wrong the whole time :bonk:
Gray_Lensman wrote:You make it sound like the whole fleet couldn't squeeze by a single gun.

I'm sorry if I made that impression, but I was trying to express the opposite. My main point is that several people have been saying that ironclads should be getting wrecked and sunk easily by forts and frigates because at Donelson the four river-ironclads were take out by the fort's guns, without actually know what went on in detail and why the ironclads were put out-of-service. None were sunk there or even in danger of it IIRC.

Foote however was not trying to pass Donelson, but engaging its guns, trying to silence them, so that he could sit in the Cumberland next to the fort and bombard the troops in and around it, at which he failed.

My semi-educated guess is that if Foote were only trying to pass Donelson as quickly and with the least casualties as possible, I believe he would have managed it. Certainly not unscathed, but I doubt his little fleet would have been sent to the bottom of the Cumberland.
Gray_Lensman wrote:It's posts like these that make me question the validity of the rest of the entire post when I see unqualified statements made in such a way to stretch the facts. I quit relying on such "expertise posts" a long time ago and started researching the actual facts to use in the game.

I agree with you 100%. Never stop thinking for yourself, even it it's to put my statements or opinions in question. Especially? :wacko:
Gray_Lensman wrote:Donelson's highest guns, a rifled 128-pounder and two 32 pounder carronades, were emplaced on a crown of a hundred-foot bluff. Two-thirds of the way down, a battery mounting a 10-inch columbiad and eight smooth-bore 32-pounders was placed * on the northern face. All twelve of these pieces were protected by earthworks, the embrasures narrowed with sandbags...

* Foote says dug into the bluff... After visiting the site, I think that's inaccurate. There was also a 9-inch swivel mounted rifle on the southern face along with 2 smaller guns which were the only ironclad-ineffective guns mounted at Fort Donelson.

By ineffective, I don't mean that the cannons couldn't be brought to bare on Foote's fleet approaching from the north, but that their fire was ineffectual, being too weak.
Personally, I'm careful about taking museum displays too seriously. They are often not historically correct. But hey, the tourist won't know the difference. And sometimes museum curators don't know better themselves. Just my experience in the States and in Europe.
Gray_Lensman wrote:Yes, you definitely will have to reread Shelby Foote's account at the Fort Donelson. Try Vol. I pgs. (194-205).


:mdr: I'm reading Foote for the second time from front to back at the moment. :thumbsup:

Gray_Lensman wrote:Here's some pics from my trip earlier this summer:



This first pic is of a placard showing typical armored gunboat design with the top susceptible to plunging fire:

[ATTACH]9116[/ATTACH]



This second pic shows about half of the northern battery with the 10-inch Columbiad on the far end:
[ATTACH]9117[/ATTACH]



This third pic is a close up of the 10-inch Columbiad:

[ATTACH]9118[/ATTACH]



This fourth pic shows the smaller southern battery with the 9-inch rifle mounted on a swivel mount. Note: the 2-smaller guns were the only ironclad-ineffective guns mounted at Fort Donelson:

[ATTACH]9119[/ATTACH]



This fifth pic is a close up of the 9-inch Rifle:

[ATTACH]9120[/ATTACH]

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:04 am

Ha! Cool Pics Gray. "Expertise" posts always get me but it's nice to see the actual truth.

I don't have a good enough memory to give an expertise post, but the Mississippi forts gave mixed accounts for themselves while the coastal forts were mostly useless. The problem with this was they rarely tried to push fat slow transports past the forts. Transports only ran the forts at Vicksburg during the middle of the night if I remember correctly.

In short, warships often went toe to toe with forts and won, but they never pushed an entire army group past a fort. Hopefully AACW2 can address issues like this.

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gekkoguy82
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:24 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Regarding museum displays... quite often you are correct, but in the case of the Fort Donelson "park" they are doing a bang up job of trying to reproduce the actual gun emplacements to be comparable to the historical accounts. They're missing the upper battery with the 128-pounder though. :(

Incidentally, I'm on my 3rd time thru the Foote Narrative's. Each time I read it, I find more info that somehow didn't register the preceding times. :)

I'm hoping to visit the Vicksburg area this coming spring and I hope to be able to get some pics towards the Vicksburg bluff from the river or opposite shore along with whatever they might have from the bluffs point of view.


Just to build a little on what Gray said about the museum displays, I think the National park service is quite competent when it comes to recreating things like that. I think they know their stuff, they aren't a little private museum off the beaten track with a high and mighty curator. For my part, I was at Donelson a couple months ago and found it very well done and informative (in addition to being very picturesque). And on a tangent about the ironclads which fought there, Pook Turtles has to be the greatest nickname for a class of warship (city class ironclads) ever :neener:

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Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:19 pm

gekkoguy82 wrote:Just to build a little on what Gray said about the museum displays, I think the National park service is quite competent when it comes to recreating things like that. I think they know their stuff, they aren't a little private museum off the beaten track with a high and mighty curator. For my part, I was at Donelson a couple months ago and found it very well done and informative (in addition to being very picturesque). And on a tangent about the ironclads which fought there, Pook Turtles has to be the greatest nickname for a class of warship (city class ironclads) ever :neener:


I thought it was calling the Monitor a cheese-can on plank :D

enf91
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:22 pm

Or was it a cheese can on a raft? And which one was the tin can on a shingle?

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Captain_Orso
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:41 pm

I think they were all the same reference. It must have look darn odd at the time.

I believe the southern troops thought that the Virginia looked a barn washed away in a flood and floating down the river. :thumbsup:

gekkoguy82
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Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:00 pm

I forgot about the cheese raft can box container name for the monitor, that's terrific too! I guess I like the Pook turtle b/c it's a bit more obsure :neener:

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