Massive Lopsided Battle Result

[denisonh]

The following battle result occured in the early Sep 1862 turn of a PBEM in version 1.13b with the Kentucky Add on.

CSA NM 103
USA NM of 98



The entire Corps under Dix is destroyed to an element and the CSA loses not even a single element.

Here are the orders for Dix's Corps. The only reason the Corps was present in the battle was I forgot to hit the rail movement button.


Defend with a disengage if attacked RoE

Here is Hamilton's Corps orders. He was essentially charged with holding Stafford to cover Dix's retreat to Fairfax.


Disengage with normal RoE. Since he was moving to Stafford to join the 3rd PA Cav, the 3d PA Cav was set to the same RoE.

Hamilton's Corps never even got a scratch but was in the region with defend and normal RoE and Dix's Corps got wiped out to the man with the disengage RoE.

Looking for help on the answers on this one (other than turning PBEM turns at 2 AM on a Saturday after drinking - the rail movement oversight), as I am at a loss to figure out what happened.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Daxil]

Think of it as a Madden football fumble. You can do things to protect the ball more, but sometimes the code just works against you.

[denisonh]

Based on discussion with my opponent, here is what I postulate what happened:

1. The battle began on day 4 and ended on day 7.
2. CSA marched to the guns with an additonal 1-2 Corps and Army Stack
3. The reckless trait for a division commander affects the entire Corps
keeping Dix from retreating until the third round being seriously hammered
by that time.
4. Dix could not disengage in the initial round and Hamilton
succeeded leaving Dix on his own until the third round when he failed to
disengage. He gets hammered by the CSA army strength closer to 6000 pts. Dies to a man in the fourth round.
5. Even distribution of casualties for the larger CSA force vs all against
the one corps.

So, I would draw from this:

1. The march to the sound of the guns not being reflected in the battle
report.
2. A reckless division commander is a problem when withdrawing even when set to disengage.
3. Casualty distribution with a larger force keeps elements from getting totally destroyed.

Gray, I am not the host and having only the USA file would not help I assume. Redeemer is the host and can provide the files.

[Daxil]

Also, if he was the only commander active they usually take the brunt of the attack. I've especially noticed this with HQs stacked with corps. The HQ divisions usually won't engage.

Be careful that you have 10% military-controlled territory to retreat to and that the enemy ZOC isn't blocking you. Be sure you never use the hold at all costs option, because they will.

[Redeemer]

Here are the before, during, and after turns. I changed the rail order for him and re-ran the turn with similar results, except for a few more casualties for me. I watched the battle process carefully this time and I clearly saw the rest of the AoP march to the sound of the guns, but they don't show up in the battle report.

[Banks6060]

Well, from the battle screen. It looks as though there was a "Quickly Angered" General somewhere in the mix...that might have kep Dix in the region long than he needed to be. It showed that he retreated, but it might have only happened after the damage had been done....Maybe it was a route.

Another thing I notice is the insanely high number of prisoners that were taken by the rebel army. 10,200 troops?? Wow..Also the number of your troops that ran...58 companies out of 96. I mean, it could just have been a fluke...but considering those numbers. I have to ask what Dix's troops cohesion was like before the fight?

[Redeemer]

Hmmm, that is true Harvey, Dix took a beating the turn before in Culpeper, VA. Then you moved him by rail to Manassas and if he then marched to the sound of the guns, his cohesion might have been shot.

[soundoff]

Now this is probably me....not having studied battle screens closely enough in the past but the report indicates that there were 96 Union units initially involved. Yet I only count 93. Two I can account for. In the ranged casualties there is the Signal Unit and the Balloon of Dix's Corp that are not showing in the 'initial forces' segment. Be blowed though if I can work out what the missing element is. Is it that only 16 different types can be shown in any of the boxes?

[denisonh]

Also, if he was the only commander active they usually take the brunt of the attack. I've especially noticed this with HQs stacked with corps. The HQ divisions usually won't engage.

Be careful that you have 10% military-controlled territory to retreat to and that the enemy ZOC isn't blocking you. Be sure you never use the hold at all costs option, because they will.

Dix was inactive and Hamilton active. Hamilton was able to retreat and Dix did not, which left him at the mercy of the entire CSA army.

Both were in the region when the fighting commenced. The region began the turn 100% USA MC and Fairfax was 100% USA MC.

Do the March to the sound of the guns troop affect region MC, even if they didn't "move" into the region?

[Daxil]

Part of the problem could be this....

[ATTACH]6013[/ATTACH]

Those elements are ripe for destruction.

I just re-ran the turn and got different results, though.

[ATTACH]6012[/ATTACH]

[Big Ideas]

I think it was the frontage bonus to the CSA that gave them the victory.
The USA has McDowell has their army leader so Hamilton could have penalties to all his stats or at best unmodified, while in Sept 62 Lee would be the Army commander for the CSA.
The battle report only shows their unmodified stats: so Hamilton could be a zero defence stat or even unmodified on a one he gets:
2x1x25= 50 bonus for inf
2x1x10 = 29 bonus for support
If Beauregard has a two offensive bonus (which is very common from Lee)
3x4x25= 300 bonus for inf and
3x4x10= 120 bonus for support
so the USA had a numerical advantage but most couldn't participate while the CSA was using nearly all his firepower each round.

[Redeemer]

I was watching the battle meter as it was happening and I clearly saw the rest of Lee's army jump to the region (Army Stack plus 2 other Corps) as if marching to the sound of the guns, then the battle meter swung from about equal to way in my favor. The final battle report does not show that Lee and the army joined the battle however.

[denisonh]

I think it was the frontage bonus to the CSA that gave them the victory.
The USA has McDowell has their army leader so Hamilton could have penalties to all his stats or at best unmodified, while in Sept 62 Lee would be the Army commander for the CSA.
The battle report only shows their unmodified stats: so Hamilton could be a zero defence stat or even unmodified on a one he gets:
2x1x25= 50 bonus for inf
2x1x10 = 29 bonus for support
If Beauregard has a two offensive bonus (which is very common from Lee)
3x4x25= 300 bonus for inf and
3x4x10= 120 bonus for support
so the USA had a numerical advantage but most couldn't participate while the CSA was using nearly all his firepower each round.

Hamilton is a 3-1-2 due to experience and modified to 2-2-3 by the Army Commander.

The issue is did Dix "march to the sound of the guns" and then get stuck when Hamilton withdrew and Dix's Corps having a reckless division commander? Or did Dix just fail to withdraw and get left to the mercy of the CSA? Hamilton had an entrenchment value of one but Dix none as he was moving, so that sure contriibuted to the problem. Did CSA casualties get distributed across the forces engaged who marched with the guns but do not show up as part of the battle report?

The case is Dix was left on his own after the initial round and swallowed whole.

[Big Ideas]

Your first set of screenies shows Hamilton with one day remaining and his move
while Dix has four days remaining on this first waypoint and seven days for his second waypoint. So Dix was left behind. And with Dix being inactive you would expect him to take longer to make his moves. Also Hamilton was moving by rail and Dix hooving it.

[Redeemer]

Your first set of screenies shows Hamilton with one day remaining and his move
while Dix has four days remaining on this first waypoint and seven days for his second waypoint. So Dix was left behind. And with Dix being inactive you would expect him to take longer to make his moves. Also Hamilton was moving by rail and Dix hooving it.

we re-ran the turn and Dix was given rail movement orders that lowered the time to 4. We had similar results. The battle occurred on day 7 and Dix was already in Manassas by then, so he had to have marched to the sound of the guns.

[denisonh]

we re-ran the turn and Dix was given rail movement orders that lowered the time to 4. We had similar results. The battle occurred on day 7 and Dix was already in Manassas by then, so he had to have marched to the sound of the guns.

Seems so. Maybe" march to the sound of the guns" needs to be affected by the RoE?

[soloswolf]

Seems so. Maybe" march to the sound of the guns" needs to be affected by the RoE?

It is. Any corps/armies in defensive stance get a -10% to their roll.

[denisonh]

It is. Any corps/armies in defensive stance get a -10% to their roll.

Stance is one thing, RoE is another. I think that RoE should be an impact on ability to "march to the guns", as a force set to disengage on contact should be less likely to seek it!

If a stack is set to disengage or "hold at all costs", I would think they would be less likely to march to aid of a neighboring Corps.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Pocus]

Stacks which are in Passive posture, Evade fight order or Retreat asap ROE never march to the sound of guns.

[Heldenkaiser]

Stacks which are in Passive posture, Evade fight order or Retreat asap ROE never march to the sound of guns.

But a stack on "defend at all cost" would?

Does that make sense? A stack with that order should stay put in its own region and, well, defend it at all cost, not march off to some other battle and leave it exposed.

[arsan]

But a stack on "defend at all cost" would?

Does that make sense? A stack with that order should stay put in its own region and, well, defend it at all cost, not march off to some other battle and leave it exposed.

Well, he don't really leave it exposed. He will stay there (defending at all cost) and at the same time can help on the adjacent region matching to the sound of the guns.
Is a game abstraction much needed IMHO, as we have 15 days turns. It gives flexibility.
I think in 9 out of 10 situations i woudl like my adjacent corps come in my help marching to the sound of the guns no matter what ROE i put on them.

[Heldenkaiser]

Well, he don't really leave it exposed. He will stay there (defending at all cost) and at the same time can help on the adjacent region matching to the sound of the guns.
Is a game abstraction much needed IMHO, as we have 15 days turns. It gives flexibility.
I think in 9 out of 10 situations i woudl like my adjacent corps come in my help marching to the sound of the guns no matter what ROE i put on them.

I see! A lot of things to learn ... does the stack keep the entrenchment level then too?

[arsan]

Yes, they should keep the entrenchments.
The only disadvantage for what i know is that they may get hurt on men and cohesion on the battle they marched for and not be at 100% when another attack comes his way.
It was done like this so the enemy could not use the gamey tactic of drawing defenders away form one region to an adjacent battle and then take the first region without a fight.
I woudl say the actual abstarction is the lesser of two evils

[Heldenkaiser]

It was done like this so the enemy could not use the gamey tactic of drawing defenders away form one region to an adjacent battle and then take the first region without a fight.

That was my concern. Thanks for the explanation.

[Daxil]

I see! A lot of things to learn ... does the stack keep the entrenchment level then too?

I've seen them actually lose their entrenchment after a big fight. I usually keep a militia or something separate to hold it just in case.