Artillery vs Ships

[Longshanks]

I'm having trouble getting the "bombard passing ships" button to appear for some of my artillery units that are next to shipping lanes such as rivers and oceans. Some have leaders, some don't. Some are entrenched, some aren't. Some have one unit, some have multiple. All of these conditions have both allowed the button to be pressed, and have not shown the button, so I can't determine the requirements for the button to appear. I've researched the forums for the triggers, but can't find a clear answer, so: what are the requirements to allow land bombardment of adjacent ship/river units?

Also, do ships that STAY in an adjacent area get bombarded, or only those that MOVE? I've got many artillery (of all mobile types) aimed at adjacent ships and with the bombard button depressed, but nothing happens turn after turn ....

Thanks!

[Ethan]

Longshanks, IIRC you must have a level of entrenchment of 3 or more.

When a fleet arrives in the area of influence of one of your stacks with the possibility of bombardment (level of entrenchment of 3 or more), the fleet will be bombarded at that time. If the fleet stays still, it will not be bombarded again until the fleet leaves that area.

[Ol' Choctaw]

Right!

They have to be entrenched to level 3 or more. Also some locked units, such as some forts don’t always get the button.

If someone knows why, please let me know. I think they bombard anyway (the forts) but just the same...???

Don’t neglect to check your port cities to make sure they are on bombard too, which you are likely doing...

[Jim-NC]

You must have an active commander.
You must have entrenchments of 3+ (unless in a fort).
You must have the dreaded "double adjancy rule" - not a condition to have the button show up, but a condition to actually fire.

[Mickey3D]

some forts don’t always get the button.

If someone knows why, please let me know. I think they bombard anyway (the forts) but just the same...???

Yes, in a fort your artillery will bombard anyway so no need for a button

[JKM]

pardon my ignorance, but what's the double adjacency rule...?

[Longshanks]

In my current game, my opponent came adjacent to Island 10 - which had long been entrenched (and in this case at level 4). The guns there did not bombard, or at least I got no message that they did.

The island was taken and the guns captured. Next turn I sail by in Green/green evade mode and get bombed for 60 hits. There's no way any of his units could have been entrenched in ONE TURN.

The message said" Island 10 bombarded us and our 7. fleet took 60 hits. We dealt 0 hits to them from returned fire."

Now I can stomach getting bombarded by my own guns, but not when they failed to fire against my enemy in the previous frickin' turn.

[Ethan]

In my current game, my opponent came adjacent to Island 10 - which had long been entrenched (and in this case at level 4). The guns there did not bombard, or at least I got no message that they did.

Longshanks, maybe your enemy's fleet is commanded by an admiral with "Fort Runner" ability (David Farragut, for example) and so the fleet was not bombarded by your artillery.

[Longshanks]

Excellent idea. It's Foote. I don't recall if he has that. Pretty nice trick, running 10,000+ men, horses and cannon! Now THAT'S stealthy!

BTW, does anyone know the answer to my second question: Can land units set on bombard attack NON-MOVING ships?

[Ethan]

Check out higher up, in the second post... I answered you this morning.

[JKM]

ah , thanks Ethan , all becomes clear now !

[Cromagnonman]

To fire on passing ships, artillery must either be in a fort or entrenched past level 3 with the bombard button pressed. Ships, and land stacks with the riverine movement button pressed, will be fired upon if and only if they move directly from a region adjacent to the artillery in question to another region adjacent to the artillery.

[Longshanks]

Ethan, you sure did. Sorry!

[Ethan]

No problem, buddy!

Regards!

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Ol' Choctaw]

It sure doesn’t work that well when you do have the button pressed!

Lyons just went down the Ohio and Mississippi past Paducah, Cairo, Island 10 to Memphis and got shot at only once, leaving Island 10. This was river transport and no naval commander was involved.

The message was that he evaded Island 10, this the one time he was shot at!

Same turn the Atlantic Squadren bombards Fort Monroe and lands 50 hit, answered by one hit.

Give me a break.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jim-NC]

The game mechanics allow a fleet to sail up next to a fort, and land a force without being bombarded. If the ships do not move through 2 regions adjacent to the fort, they are not bombarded (the double adjacency rule). So, on Island # 10, or any coastal fort, you move your fleet into the water area next to the fort, the next turn you offload your army, and attack the fort. No bombardment. You have to start from a region not next to the fort. It gives the union an advantage with sea-borne / river-borne operations. You can do the same thing as the CSA (if you get a fleet, and decide to invade a northern fort/city).

Is it gamey? Yes, but that is part of the engine, and will need to change for AACW 2.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Ol' Choctaw]

I was under the mistaken impression that they were supposed to be bombarded when the entered a region and when they left it.

That makes a huge difference in the way it works. I suppose the double bombardment I have seen are where the fort startles two water zones.

It still doesn’t explain why Fort Monroe never seems to bombard the enemy when he comes in and out.

Well almost never. It always seems to work when I enter an area though.

[Cromagnonman]

It still doesn’t explain why Fort Monroe never seems to bombard the enemy when he comes in and out.

Fort Monroe never bombards because it is only adjacent to Hampton Roads. Since there are not 2 (water) regions adjacent, it can never fulfill the double adjacency rule, and thus never fires. I have suggested it be adjusted to be adjacent to both Hampton Roads and the lower Chesapeake Bay, which would be historical, but no further map changes are to be made.

[Longshanks]

Jim-NC, that's the best explanation I've seen for what happened. I love this game, but it has a lot of "secret rules" that one must know to be an effective player. This is one of them. Okay, I'm willing to pay my dues!

My experience with Ft. Monroe is this: if I am the CSA and try to move my Richmond ocean-vessels out, they'll get sunk about half the time, even if in G/G and evade. My impression was that any path out took you through Ft. Monroe. Am I wrong? (maybe I shouldn't let the game pick the path! I often don't on land moves!)

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Jim-NC]

Jim-NC, that's the best explanation I've seen for what happened. I love this game, but it has a lot of "secret rules" that one must know to be an effective player. This is one of them. Okay, I'm willing to pay my dues!

My experience with Ft. Monroe is this: if I am the CSA and try to move my Richmond ocean-vessels out, they'll get sunk about half the time, even if in G/G and evade. My impression was that any path out took you through Ft. Monroe. Am I wrong? (maybe I shouldn't let the game pick the path! I often don't on land moves!)

The path takes you next to Ft. Monroe. You are forced to go by it. The regions are small, but you use the coastal/river area next to the fort (Hampton Roads I believe). I have noticed that ships can sometimes bypass defenses (one side gets a message when this happens, IIRC it is the artillery owner). I don't know the exact odds, but I do know that sometimes ships sneak past, and are not bombarded.

[Longshanks]

I'm still not figuring this out.

In a recent PBEM game, my riverboat units (i.e., travelling using the Move by River order) cross paths with an enemy riverboat force travelling the opposite way. He didn't use gunboats or transports. Just the Move by River ground units. He sails through my units up to Fort Donelson, which is garrisoned with two cannon and infantry. My path takes me through ungarrisoned country with no enemy units other than the ones passing by on boats. His units on boats have a power about 2-3 times those of mine.

I get a message that my units take 50 hits and deliver none in return. Sheesh. I expected THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

Apparently my fort did no damage at all to him which I am beginning to understand is a flaw in the game, as described by Jim-NC above.

So... what happened here? Am I right to assume my fort did not bombard because he sailed up to it and invaded it, rather than sailing past? Or did it bombard him and I just didn't get a message?

What about HIS river units...why does he get to do 50 without gunboats when I get nothing? I just don't want to repeat the mistake, but I don't understand these rules.

Thanks!

[Ol' Choctaw]

I have fought a few engagements on the rivers with troops vs. troops but this doesn’t sound like that is what happened.

If you didn’t get a message, the game ignored what ever happened or it just didn’t occur.

I have had some very one sided results too. Like ships bombarding Fort Monroe and got 50 hits on the fort and I got 1 hit on a ship. I tried bombarding a fort and lost 9 Ironclads, but wooden ships seemed to do a number on me...

I don’t know all the ins and outs but it seems a bit strange to me too.

[Longshanks]

Happened again the next turn when my cav division crossed a river at the same time as his inf bde moved by. I didn't take any hits, but it looks like he took 10 - at least his unit is 57/67, but it might have been that way already. I wasn't travelling via Move by River orders, but I got a notice that I had successfully evaded him at the Mississippi Confluent. Maybe we didn't fight. I dunno. One of the problems of PBEM is that I can't see the battles on the hour by hour animation, so I'm missing details. Course, no battle here, so no screen. I feel like Davis in that I never know what's really going on! LOL

[Ol' Choctaw]

I was also wondering about the guns in Norfolk that never fire, what is the deal here. I would think that it was adjacent to a lot of water areas and should shoot at the fleets entering the area around Ft. Monroe also, but it doesn’t happen.

Would guns in that southern point on the peninsula ( Cape Charles) east of Ft. Monroe cover the approaches to Chesapeake Bay or is that just another waste of time?

Has anyone found a way to hamper the Union in Chesapeake Bay?

Need forts be built or are entrenchments in or out of towns or depots just as good?

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Ol' Choctaw]

Search for the "Double Adjacency" Rule for your answers.

LOL!

Give an old feller a break.

I can read the weather or a horse much better than a data file.

When it comes to games, I like to play them but I have a hard time going much deeper than practical experience.

So far, while a water element may seem to be adjacent to a region, that is no sure sign that my guns will shoot at it.