Estimating Enemy strengths

[Injun]

I am having a problem here. What ever side you play you know your strength and number of men, horses and cannon by clicking on a stack and doing ctrl key. Before that it gives a pwr number. If you pass your mouse over the stack name you get.



The number of men and guns taken from a battle fought against this unit.

I circled the info in question

What does the ***,**,* mean by the name?
( 90/90 ) mean?

Thomas J Jackson (Thomas J Jackson)**(90/90)

Given the info in the picture how does one estimate combat power and strength in men. If you faced this unit with the numbers of men and guns removed how would you estimate its strength?

[arsan]

Hi!

The numbers (90/90) are the power (pwr) of that enemy unit.
So its the current strenght of that units (division in this case). Just compare it with your own divisions pwr and you will know more or less how powerful they are.
The * means the number of stars of the general.
So in your example, Johnston (3 stars) commands a stack formed by two divisions: K Smith (1 star leader) division and Jackson (2 star leader) divisions and a lone brigade.
Both divisions are pretty understrength (aroudn 90 pwr, when a normal full strength division at top cohesion can be between 400 and 600 pwr aprox.
What you cannot know if that these enemy divisions have lots of tired men with little cohesion or less men but fit for combat.

Regards

[Injun]

Hi!

The numbers (90/90) are the power (pwr) of that enemy unit.
So its the current strenght of that units (division in this case). Just compare it with your own divisions pwr and you will know more or less how powerful they are.
The * means the number of stars of the general.
So in your example, Johnston (3 stars) commands a stack formed by two divisions: K Smith (1 star leader) division and Jackson (2 star leader) divisions and a lone brigade.
Both divisions are pretty understrength (aroudn 90 pwr, when a normal full strength division at top cohesion can be between 400 and 600 pwr aprox.
What you cannot know if that these enemy divisions have lots of tired men with little cohesion or less men but fit for combat.

Regards

* Stars I got. (90/90) Power(pwr) ? If you notices Smiths Bde (47/70)
1st number Power/ 2nd number?

What I want to know is to estimate that power into stregths of the number of Men. An estimate at a galnce withoutdoing a search and compare.

If I give you a force of a power of 150 what whould your guess be to the number of men?

[Spharv2]

You can't even guesstimate from those numbers as far as troop numbers go. A unit with 47/90 could have every man available, but your cohesion could be low. Bout the only wat to make anything but a WAG is to actually get in a battle with two distinct units with nobody else around.

[arsan]

Hi

On the brigade, 47/70 means current power/maximum power if at full strength and 100% cohesion.
But on divisions it always shows current power/current power. Its an engine limitation. Because of divisions are formed of various brigades and units the game cannot calculate the total maximum power.

About number of men, this is not a good measure of combat power. Experience, type of units, presence of artillery, current cohesion etc can make a (for example) 5.000 men units vary a lot in pwr.
To get a rough idea of the strength of an enemy or friendly stack you better look at his power ratings. Pwr is calculated taking into account units statistics, current number of hits and cohesion.. its much better than number of men.
Bear in mind the game system don't use number of men at all in his combat calculation.
Its just a flavor thing that is nice to see on battle reports for immersion. What its important in a battle is unit statistics, hits.
In fact AACW didn't had number of men/horses/guns until a relatively recent patch (1.08? 1.10? :confused
Regards

[Injun]

The 5 to 35% combat penalties is against the power numbers?

[Injun]

As to enemy strenghs I am still comfused. When I compare units I am use to seeing numbers of : infantry, Cavalry, artillery , othet service units, and morale ratings.
Evaluating combat strenths in attack and defence compared with ground and weather.

I quess I will have to get use to using the power ratings of the game. So the above stack of Johnston has a combined power of 226. So to take him on in caombat I need the combine power of 456 to have any real sucess.

[arsan]

Not really, but the % penalty is accounted for in the pwr rating you see.

The pwr is obtained by some formula that takes into account the different units statistics but it's just to give you (and the AI) an estimate of the combat strength of a unit.
The power rating is not used at all on the combat calculations.
The % penalties will apply to the units statistics that are what really counts for the hundreds of rolls and calculations done during a combat resolution.

[arsan]

I quess I will have to get use to using the power ratings of the game. So the above stack of Johnston has a combined power of 226. So to take him on in caombat I need the combine power of 456 to have any real sucess.

As a rule of thumb calculation, yes... BUT! don't forget to take into account the enternchment level of the enemy stacks.
This is not accounted for on th pwr rating.
So a 226 pwr stack with a high level entrench will need much more that a 2:1 advantage. More like a 4:1
Another thing to take into account. The pwr you see is not fixed. It will change as the turn progress.
This CSA stack now has 226 pwr maybe because it has moved or foght and has low cohesion. But each turn day it passes without moving will recover cohesion and his pwr will be higher.
The same way, your 456 attacking stack will probably be down to 300 pwr after walking for a week to get to them.
Regards

[Injun]

Freaking Magic? Thats what ya get when ya get Europeans designin a game. Nothin simple like in an old favorite of mine," American Civil War: From Sumter to Appomattox"

An oldie but still a good game. Wish they had updated it with more patches. One thing I will give this European bunch, they UPDATE thier game. I wish we had such support in US.

Arsan thanks for the help.

[Banks6060]

I'll just take a second to reinterate some of the main points already made as far as estimating troop strength goes.

The way I do it....I know that a 1,000 point stack will TYPICALLY consist of around 15,000 to 18,000 troops depending on the number of guns and sharpshooters attached etc...I use this to guestimate troop strength in those stacks in the "Also here" category.

You take it even further down...each division...at full strength (between 450 and 600 pwr) can number roughly 6,500 to 8,000 depending on the same things. This is what I use to guage the troop strength of units that I have better intel on.

Then I will always take into consideration all information regarding how long the enemy stack or unit has been marching, if they were in combat. It they suffered attrition losses from bad weather and of course from the after battle reports. All to arrive at the most accurate troop strength possible.

As arsan mentioned...the actually troop numbers don't matter at all...it's just nice to have them when you're AAR'ing.

[mikee64]

I usually take the power number and multiply by 15 to get a troop estimate. As stated above this is not exact and you do need to get used to using the power numbers. It sounds like Banks does something similar to estimate enemy strength in his AARs, but he tends to lean towards a slightly higher estimate than I use (probably a smart thing to do).

On a slightly unrelated note, something I didn't learn until recently:



In the picture the unit listed after each Division is always the first unit added to that Division, for example EK Smith's Division added the 1st VA Cavalry as its first element. This can sometimes be important if you have elite Brigades inside a Division and don't want your opponent to know it (yet). For this reason I usually add my cav first; think of it as additional screening duties.

[soloswolf]

I actually put my elites as the first unit in. I fly those banners high for my men to see and for my enemy to fear!

I think it's a neat little feature. One that I definitely make sure to use.

(Also, I think your approach is a valid one. However, a sharp opponent will see the power of the division they are in and know something is up. The divisions with elites 'on-board' stand out a bit more early in the game when there has been little chance to gain xp in battle, [raising their cohesion and obviously power] but later in the game when everyone is a bit hardened by battle they can blend in a bit more.)

[mikee64]

All true solo, I almost mentioned the opposite effect where you could intentionally use your elites for intimidation.

Also, Divisions with stand alone cav regiments instead of imbedded ones are the exception rather than the rule (at least for me), so its not always possible to use the cav first strategy anyway.

Still as you say I thought it was a neat little feature when I discovered it.

[SkyWestNM]

The designers have truly implemented some fine levels of nuance in the tooltip intelligence levels provided you. The necessity for cavalry to get up close and personal to refine your knowledge begets an interesting cat and mouse game since cavalry provides refined information (at a cost if it gets detected). But I digress.

Please notice these nuances: An enemy division strength unit will have its lead brigade annotated in parenthesis when your intelligence level is high enough. A divisionless leader is simply listed. Now you can count the number of constructed divisions present.

So hence, if that level of intel is available to you, you can tell the number of divisions in the command and that can provide your numbers.

The power number if provided, will tell you if the division(s) are either understrength (not full 18 elements) or tired (low cohesion--tired from marching or fighting). You get to decide based on past events/context. As has been stated a full strength division is in the 480-600 power range. Less than that, they are depleted and require reinforcements or rest.

When I observed Banks and Soundoffs AARs while the numbers gave it a very authentic and tactical flavor, I wanted to know, in context, the power from those numbers since they would tell me....tired or fresh, effective or non effective. That's where power listings can help you a bunch. BTW, my hats off to those two for providing the community such a thorough presentation and commitment. I learned alot. Thanks you two!

Another intelligence nuance that can be glossed over (that drastically affects frontages, which are the key to winning tactical battles): the type of command in an opposting stack. A three star is not necessarily an Army commander. He could be a corps or an independent command. But the tooltip will often tell you. This has GREAT impact on determining your upcoming turn tactics. If your opponent has not made Grant an army commander, he can't pass down those awesome add on stats to his subordinates and hence they could be vulnerable in woods and clear terrain. If he is, he could show up marching to the sound of the guns and take them away replacing his (good) stats for possibly higher ones. Interesting possiblities!

If a two star is not a corps commander the same principle applies that his command points are weak and penalties (sometimes listed) will effect those who get in the next fight.

Conversely one wily opponent I had, used my intelligence against me. He came up with a "hidden leader" for the next attack from a lower sized stack in the same region that I could not see. Neat move!

Familiarity with the icon pictures is also a plus. When you get no intel, sometimes recognizing the opposing commander is helpful.


Ah, I digress again. Forgive me. Your original question was how to determine numbers from power. Can't be done effectively. Power numbers, as has been said, can be a gauge of effectiveness or size. But your question regarding size is important too because if tired, when rested, those troops can become strong. And to keep them unrested can be a viable of your grand tactics.
Like Patton, if you keep the enemy always moving, they can't rest unless withdrawn. How many divisions are present is my idea as a key.

You can determine the number of divisions or division equivalents usually pretty accurately and from that, you can get a pretty close guesstimate of the numbers of infantry and artillery as has already been described. When I put my guesstimates up against the actual count showing on battle results, my intell has proven itself very accurate.

For me, the key to winning battles is how many artillery units I can get into contact, at far range, WITH FIRST FIRE. Corps artillery helps there.Leadership and unit initiative help too. And number of divisions helps me determine enemy infantry and artillery capabilities. My intel involves divisons, size of division, terrain, frontages, enemy composition and initiative capabilities of the units and commanders. But I would be hijacking this thread to take it further. AACW provides a fascinating world of intelligence benefit as to enemy capabilities!

Suffice it to say, I disagree with the commonly held belief on this forum that defense is king and that the road to victory is to get the opposition to attack me. While that can work, it leaves the initiative to the enemy. Major Tom has provided a wealth of information regarding frontage and ZOC possiblities there. Thanks to him too for excellent research! But that's a whole 'nother story.

Good luck with your armies, your numbers and your intelligence!

[Injun]

In my next ARR turn win one and lose one. I am learning quickly the roll of Cavalry, not primary raids, but intell gathering. I need to read Soundoffs Union side of his ARR. A lesson in use of Cavalry. I also learned that Athena can be deceiving. I expect to run in to Bee with 1 Bde and three Battys and I get Johnston vs Keyes! Bee is in the depot behind Winchester. Athena using teleport?

SkyWestNM,
I thank you for that summary and I do have questions.

The power number if provided, will tell you if the division(s) are either understrength (not full 18 elements) or tired (low cohesion--tired from marching or fighting). You get to decide based on past events/context. As has been stated a full strength division is in the 480-600 power range. Less than that, they are depleted and require reinforcements or rest.

So using my example of Johnstons Command,I have to divisions
Jackson a future ** commanding his own Bde (90/90)
From Reinforement Doc it shows that the Jackson bde, composed of
5 elements, in the battle only three, 2nd, 27thVA and 4th&5th Sharpshooters,
Missing is the 33rd VA Hence (90/90) say 1800 men mulipier of 20

E K Smith a *comanding a Bde of (89/89)showing 1st VA Cav. 1800
His own bde Smith's Bde (47/70) at 67% strenght 940 men

Rough estimate 4500 men

In Battle Report list him with 4960 and 8 HA Guns, 4 Cav, 4 line Inf, 1/SS and 1 batty of HA(horse art) What surprized me was those additional 3 units of Cav! No wonder I could not get an accurate intell, That Cav screen!

Using the factor of 20 is an under estimate by 500 men.

Another intelligence nuance that can be glossed over (that drastically affects frontages, which are the key to winning tactical battles): the type of command in an opposting stack. A three star is not necessarily an Army commander. He could be a corps or an independent command. But the tooltip will often tell you. This has GREAT impact on determining your upcoming turn tactics. If your opponent has not made Grant an army commander, he can't pass down those awesome add on stats to his subordinates and hence they could be vulnerable in woods and clear terrain. If he is, he could show up marching to the sound of the guns and take them away replacing his (good) stats for possibly higher ones. Interesting possiblities!

Which tool tip is that?

For me, the key to winning battles is how many artillery units I can get into contact, at far range, WITH FIRST FIRE. Corps artillery helps there.Leadership and unit initiative help too. And number of divisions helps me determine enemy infantry and artillery capabilities. My intel involves divisons, size of division, terrain, frontages, enemy composition and initiative capabilities of the units and commanders. But I would be hijacking this thread to take it further. AACW provides a fascinating world of intelligence benefit as to enemy capabilities!

Sky, I would not care if you did hijack this thread, I could learn alot.
espeacially if you would take a game against athena and do a step by step intelligence assisment. May be a current game you are playing Athena.

The thead should be call Intelligence assisment in ACW.

[SkyWestNM]

I'm gonna start a new thread, Injun, called "Intellitips" to discuss intelligence. Took me awhile to figure out how to post screen shots and convert them to an acceptable format for the forum. But now that I have I will do so and I can share some interesting tips I've learned that may be helpful. Thanks for the interest.

SkyWestNM

[Brochgale]

Cavalry - the eyes and ears of your Armies. Especially if you are running FOW.

[richfed]

I usually take the power number and multiply by 15 to get a troop estimate. As stated above this is not exact and you do need to get used to using the power numbers. It sounds like Banks does something similar to estimate enemy strength in his AARs, but he tends to lean towards a slightly higher estimate than I use (probably a smart thing to do).

On a slightly unrelated note, something I didn't learn until recently:



In the picture the unit listed after each Division is always the first unit added to that Division, for example EK Smith's Division added the 1st VA Cavalry as its first element. This can sometimes be important if you have elite Brigades inside a Division and don't want your opponent to know it (yet). For this reason I usually add my cav first; think of it as additional screening duties.

Still, I really don't understand this ... why show a unit [in parenthesis] at all? Why just not EK Smith's Division? One still can't tell the composition or strength of the division.

[enf91]

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Notice: the first unit of Jackson's division is Jackson himself. So something is definitely weird there.

[W.Barksdale]

Guys, guys!!!

If you have something like Thomas J. Jackson(Thomas J. Jackson) it means that he leader in question is commanding a brigade. Estimate its composition by the pwr rating, if possible.

If you have something like Thomas J. Jackson(The Stonewall Bde) it means that the leader in question is commanding a division, and the first element added to that division is the stonewall Bde.

See SkyWests excellent Intellitips thread for more information.

[mikee64]

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Notice: the first unit of Jackson's division is Jackson himself. So something is definitely weird there.

Nothing weird I have ever seen; if it is a division it will always list the first combat unit w/in that division in parentheses. IOW, what Barksdale just said.

Richfed: as to why, I have no idea other than the fact that the game treats divisions in a somewhat different manner in lots of cases. This is one of them that's been that way a long time (maybe from the start) and I doubt it will change. Sorry I can't offer more help but that's the way it works, I've tested it by reforming divisions to get the first unit displayed to change.

Something else I only recently learned about units inside divisions: they are not listed in the "F1" roster report at all. Only the entire division is listed, not the 18 sub-units.