The Sortie!!

[nilam]

By clicking the Sortie icon is there anything else i have to do "clicking" wise
to actually try and fight my way out of a siege situation.(yes Winchester)

And any advise on the best way to break a siege from a outside force
would be useful.

P.s In all my battles upto now it appears the first div in a Corps seem to
take the majority of the casualties--is there an order of engagement or
is it down to frontage Generals stats etc.

[arsan]

Hi Nilam

The sortie button serves ONLY to coordinate a sortie of your garrison with the arrival to the region of another force of you, let's say a rescue force.
With the button pressed, your garrison will attack the besiegers at the same time your rescuing force do.
If there is no rescuing force you don't need to use the button. It will have no effect at all.
To order just a sortie (with no rescue force) just drag and drop your garrison outside the structure, on the same region or on another.
As for the best way to "fight your way out" of a siege, if what you want is to save part of a doomed garrison i would drag them out of the structure with passive stance, the green ROE and the evade combat order added up just in case .
Probably they will get caught by the siegers and beat up badly but with those orders is probably the break contact as soon as possible and some remnant will scape to an adjacent region.
Of course it also depends of the size and units types of the force besieging and yours.
Cavalry is very good at escaping form sieges but don't expect you arty and supply trains to make it good most of the times.
Regards!

[nilam]

Thanks Arson
Sounds like you have learnt by experience.
Can you enlighten me on the P.S i now value your views as you always respond quickly.......thanks again.

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

A besieged force can destroy the depot it occupies, but not any supply wagons there. Seems like the force should be able to destroy both, plus spike any cannons before they fall into enemy hands.

[ohms_law]

ahhhh... that's what sorte does!
Thanks!

I have to disagree about the best method to escape a siege withouth the help of another force, though. A passive posture is a non-combat posture, so any stack/unit which enters combat in a passive posture is likely to be annihilated.

Last, in Passive posture, you are always in Retreat if Engaged ROE. The other options are not active. [color="Red"]According to the Passive Posture, you have combat penalties and suffer heavier losses.[/color] However you also have the non-combat bonuses of this Posture, especially a stronger cohesion and a better replacement ratio.

You're correct regarding the use of green ROE, but it should actually be done with an offensive posture (Feint/Probe Attack. You're trying to fight your way out. Defensive or especially passive posture while moving is bad because it gives up the initiative). If using an offensive posture it is likely that your force will take the initiative, thereby giving your unit the best chance to successfully perform an organized retreat.

[Hobbes]

By clicking the Sortie icon is there anything else i have to do "clicking" wise
to actually try and fight my way out of a siege situation.(yes Winchester)

And any advise on the best way to break a siege from a outside force
would be useful.

P.s In all my battles upto now it appears the first div in a Corps seem to
take the majority of the casualties--is there an order of engagement or
is it down to frontage Generals stats etc.

I've never noticed this, maybe it is just chance that you have seen this happen? The only order I know of pertains to individual stacks :-

Stacks tend to target first the biggest enemy stacks, but can be fooled by a smaller one. Offensive stacks are always targeted before defensive ones.

Cheers, Chris

[nilam]

Arson,
I forgot to ask i want attack out of Winchester, should i go "red" or "orange"
mode.
Grant who is besieging me has just took 17000 casualties but destroyed a whole corps of mine in the process (DOH!!!!)
Its the next turn so his cohesion must be low and some depleted units.
Should i hit him now or wait for LEE"s army who is 2 turns away.?

[ohms_law]

A besieged force can destroy the depot it occupies, but not any supply wagons there. Seems like the force should be able to destroy both, plus spike any cannons before they fall into enemy hands.

That would be nice.

[Captain]

Nilam,
Winchester again
The best thing for seiges is try to avoid being caught in the town in the first place.

As to your PS there is no order of march that I know of. Just up to frontage etc.

[ohms_law]

I forgot to ask i want attack out of Winchester, should i go "red" or "orange" mode.

Orange. You should only use the assault (red) posture when you have a large advantage and are trying to finish a siege.

Its the next turn so his cohesion must be low and some depleted units.
Should i hit him now or wait for LEE"s army who is 2 turns away.?

Both. Use conservative or feint (if you're really outnumbered. ie.: > 3:1) attacks until you can get your main force on site.

[arsan]

Hi

No idea about the PS, but i don't think there is a fixed order of engagement. And I have not noticed that always the 1º divisions gets the worst,
What i notice is that losses are surely not evenly shared at all. Some units can end a battle mauled and others barely scathed. But that sound pretty historical too.
Chaplain
The burn wagons and spike guns is a new option included on the last AGEOD game (Wars in America) and hopefully someday will be retrofitted to the previous games when Pocus find some time to do it

[Hobbes]

ahhhh... that's what sorte does!
Thanks!

I have to disagree about the best method to escape a siege withouth the help of another force, though. A passive posture is a non-combat posture, so any stack/unit which enters combat in a passive posture is likely to be annihilated.


You're correct regarding the use of green ROE, but it should actually be done with an offensive posture (Feint/Probe Attack. You're trying to fight your way out. Defensive or especially passive posture while moving is bad because it gives up the initiative). If using an offensive posture it is likely that your force will take the initiative, thereby giving your unit the best chance to successfully perform an organized retreat.

This is interesting! I think the actual disadvantage in combat if caught in a passive stance is not that much? -10%? But if you lose initiative then the penalty could be heavier. (But I didn't know that you might lose initiative in a defensive stance. Where did you find this?)

If I try and flee I tend to do so in a defensive/passive stance with the evade combat order on. Seems to work pretty well. If you are being besieged there is a chance your opponent is in defensive mode so you may be able to flee without combat if you don't use an aggressive mode.

Chris

[nilam]

Hi Hobbes,

Thats interesting to know,does it make any difference whether they are activated or not and are brownies automatically activated by proxy being in a activated Generals stack or corps.?

[Hobbes]

Hi Hobbes,

Thats interesting to know,does it make any difference whether they are activated or not and are brownies automatically activated by proxy being in a activated Generals stack or corps.?

Hi Nilam, I don't really understand the question. And what's a brownie - I assume I'm being a bit thick here

Cheers, Chris

[nilam]

Hi Captain,

Yes i know the common thought is never tobe besieged,but i really don"t want to retreat from Winchester-if i am outside and lose a battle thats what
i will do.
i have the AotP in there about 100,000 men so i doubt Grant would want to go around me,and if he dosnt know how big my force is after wiping my corps
out he soon will!!!!

[nilam]

sorry Hobbes,
Its what i call a brown eveloped General (inactive)

[arsan]

Ohms,

Check the updated manual in the wiki
http://ageod.nsen.ch/aacwwiki/Posture
Here it says passive also gives bonus to retreat from combat.
On more recent game manual (like WIA for example it also included the info about the bonus to retreat, so i'm pretty sure it works like this.
Besides, i found this Pocus post about it
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=52548&postcount=8
"passive give you +10% chance of escaping battle but during battle your protection rating and your discipline stat is 90% of what you should get."

That's why i usually use it when i'm trying to get something alive out of a hopeless situation.
If the sieged are already "dead meat" a -10 penalty on combat won't make ant difference. But a +10% chance of escaping can be the difference between life and death if you are lucky!
But i have no scientific probe about whats better in all situations, passive or non passive. Maybe if escaping force is only reasonable weaker that the singers non passive will be better. but if you have no fighting chance i will go with passive.

About orange/red postures i'm positive there is NO DIFFERENCE between them in desire to fight intensity.
They just differ in that orange means attack and red attack and assault any structure on the regions you pass by if there is any. But the attack order is the same in both.

About best posture to escape a siege, i agree with Hobbes.
Put passive or defensive if you prefer. If the enemy has less than 95% military control of the region and is in defensive your passive/defensive force will trigger no combat and scape unscathed
If the enemy has complete military control of the region your escaping units in defense will be forced to change to offensive by the game mechanics anyway.

Regards

[arsan]

Hi Hobbes,

Thats interesting to know,does it make any difference whether they are activated or not and are brownies automatically activated by proxy being in a activated Generals stack or corps.?

Activation depends ONLY of the in command leader of the stack.
So any leader/division on inactive situation will have no effect if stacked together with and activated overall commander.
Of course, if you detached them to another stack by themselves, they will become unactivated again.

[nilam]

Thanks Arson,
I"ve got alot to think about before i send my turn.

[Hobbes]

Also if you try and escape a siege and place your units outside, it might be worth hitting the enter structure button just in case you lose a battle while trying to escape and possibly leaving a low value unit inside the structure to maintain control. Not sure if this makes much difference really but it doesn't do any harm.

Cheers, Chris

[ohms_law]

The burn wagons and spike guns is a new option included on the last AGEOD game (Wars in America) and hopefully someday will be retrofitted to the previous games when Pocus find some time to do it

"passive give you +10% chance of escaping battle [color="Red"]but during battle your protection rating and your discipline stat is 90% of what you should get.[/color]"

Note the highlighted portion...

If I try and flee I tend to do so in a defensive/passive stance with the evade combat order on. Seems to work pretty well. If you are being besieged there is a chance your opponent is in defensive mode so you may be able to flee without combat if you don't use an aggressive mode.

From what I've seen, the AI tends to use at least an attack posture during a siege. I do so myself, as well, since it seems to increase the chances of catching the garrison if you gain a breech during the turn.
If the opposition is using a defensive posture though, it probably would be best to use a defensive posture as well. Defensive vs. defensive means that it's most likely no combat will occur.

It seems to me though that the most important issue here is the siege defender's ROE. regardless of posture, the best chances of getting out alive with your units is going to be to use the green ROE (Retreat if Engaged or Feint/Probe attack).

Regardless, don't discount initiative. High initiative provides big benefits in combat as it is the largest factor in determining who fires first each round. Sub-units will fire a number of times depending on their rate of fire (with a minimum of one). You can't directly control it, but it's worth attempting to maximize. You do that by using an attack posture (and a good general, if you're able to)...
Note on the list here: http://ageod.nsen.ch/aacwwiki/Manual:Combat_in_the_field#Fire_combat
Successful firing depends on a sub-unit’s offensive fire value (if the force is in offensive posture) or defensive fire value (if the force is in defensive posture) and is influenced by the following:

• Unit’s discipline rating
  
• Unit’s experience level
  
• Leader offensive fire/defensive fire rating, as appropriate
  
• Cover of target unit provided by terrain or fortifications
  
• Weather
  
• Leader special abilities
  
• Command penalties (Out of command chain status and/or lack of CP’s)
  
• Lack of ammunition and/or general supply
  
• Friendly supply wagon present (+10%)
  
• River crossing/amphibious landing
  
• Forced march
  
• [color="Red"]Failed withdrawal/passive posture[/color]
  
• Trench level above five (for artillery only)

Actually, even if you're vastly outnumbered it's probably a better choice to keep any besieged unit in place and hope for the best...

[ohms_law]

Also if you try and escape a siege and place your units outside, it might be worth hitting the enter structure button just in case you lose a battle while trying to escape and possibly leaving a low value unit inside the structure to maintain control. Not sure if this makes much difference really but it doesn't do any harm.

Cheers, Chris

That sounds like a good idea.

[ohms_law]

Sorry about the multiple consecutive posts, but I feel that I should highlight something else:
Successful firing depends on a sub-unit’s offensive fire value (if the force is in offensive posture) or defensive fire value (if the force is in defensive posture)
These questions are highly situationally dependant. You need to evaluate your own forces, and your oppositions force as much as possible.

[nilam]

(by the way i am entrenched to level 6).
I would dearly love to hit now...... but i suppose it would be a straight
fight as niether side would be entrenched.

[arsan]

Also if you try and escape a siege and place your units outside, it might be worth hitting the enter structure button just in case you lose a battle while trying to escape and possibly leaving a low value unit inside the structure to maintain control. Not sure if this makes much difference really but it doesn't do any harm.

Cheers, Chris

Well, maybe we are talking about different thing here.

If you try to break a siege by attacking and defeating the sieger force this tip is really good as you don't want to lose the battle and retreat to another region leaving the structure empty. If you can win ans expel the siegers, at least you still maintain the city

But what i have been talking here all the while is of that situations when the siege is hopeless, you know the town will fall as soon as its assaulted and you want to leave the city to the enemy but save part of your force.
In that case what you intend precisely is to fight your way out of the town. In other words: sortie, and lose/retreat form battle as soon and as unharmed as possible to escape to another region. That's way i use passive-
In this second case clinking the enter town button is completely wrong as you will end as you began. Under siege ans probably badly mauled in battle.
Cheers!

[nilam]

ok all,

Its what would you do time>>>
Grants stats are 7-8-9 (wow)
B"gards 4-2-4 (boohoo)
my force1400
his 1200 and his just fought a major engagement losing 17000

Do i attack out or wait for Lee giving him time to regain cohesion and get a small level of entrenchment (i"m level 6)

[Hobbes]

Well, maybe we are talking about different thing here.

If you try to break a siege by attacking and defeating the sieger force this tip is really good as you don't want to lose the battle and retreat to another region leaving the structure empty. If you can win ans expel the siegers, at least you still maintain the city

But what i have been talking here all the while is of that situations when the siege is hopeless, you know the town will fall as soon as its assaulted and you want to leave the city to the enemy but save part of your force.
In that case what you intend precisely is to fight your way out of the town. In other words: sortie, and lose/retreat form battle as soon and as unharmed as possible to escape to another region. That's way i use passive-
In this second case clinking the enter town button is completely wrong as you will end as you began. Under siege ans probably badly mauled in battle.
Cheers!

Yes good point! I once took a fort only to see enemy reinforcements sneak into it under my nose in the same turn as I didn't enter the fort. So when planning an assault it's always worth hitting "enter structure" if you want to occupy it after a succesful attack.

[Hobbes]

ok all,

Its what would you do time>>>
Grants stats are 7-8-9 (wow)
B"gards 4-2-4 (boohoo)
my force1400
his 1200 and his just fought a major engagement losing 17000

Do i attack out or wait for Lee giving him time to regain cohesion and get a small level of entrenchment (i"m level 6)

Well that depends Nilam, are you feeling lucky?

I say give him a kick while he is down. If he is not entrenched and his cohesion is down now is the time to strike! (but maybe with a defend & retreat order).

[nilam]

You don"t think his stats might swing things his way!!!
lucky for me he left his Gatlin guns in Manassas.
I"m thinking hit the "red button" take the higher casualties and Lee can bash
him up if he dos"nt fall back.

[Hobbes]

You don"t think his stats might swing things his way!!!
lucky for me he left his Gatlin guns in Manassas.
I"m thinking hit the "red button" take the higher casualties and Lee can bash
him up if he dos"nt fall back.

You learn from experience Nilam, you just get a feeling after a while of what sort of attacks work. If I could see the full picture I would have a better idea. I made the AACW reference guide when I started playing to try and understand everything that happened in a game - but after a while you chuck it in the bin and just get a "feel". Just like a real general I suppose.

Chris