Divisions

[Coregonas]

I dont know about exact political causes, problems and so... on drafts during 1861.

But seems to me than "calling for volunteers" could be more easily (politically) allowed since the very begginning, but mobilization could be somewhat more difficult.

Perhaps simply allowing for "volunteers" since the very start, and delay a bit the 1st 61 draft (for instance, until september 61 or 1862) could add to realism... However this does not allow for the WHAT IF?

Another posibility, could be just upgrading a few pips (for instance 2 points) the NM hit on FULL mobilizations, without modify on the low mobilization. This could allow still to mobilize, but getting a more hard political hit...

I believe the NM hit is really important in order to reduce final figures.

[GShock]

Lincoln called twice the volounteers and only at the very beginning if i am not mistaken.

The real hit is, i concur, the very little loss of NM when the draft options are taken as the war goes on. For a starter i would replace these options with the re-enlisting of the expiring period of the existing soldiers, on a bounty of course...in other words i would take a more historical approach on this side.

Again, the fact there's a hidden timer on those options, allows the player to call one of these just prior to the reset essentially the gamey feature is that you may call on the draft the turn before it's reset and call it again next turn...thus allowing you to call on the same option in two consecutive turns.

Since the manpower pool is not assessed on state level but on national level, a draft call for USA for example, allows the player to build all 200 (still an example) conscript all in MD, thus having a real edge in the subsequent turns against the opponent who is left to choose whether to reinforce VA as best as he can (and lose everything else) or risk losing the game straight away against a coming juggernaut.

This is really a problem of no easy solution....but if the option to call draft past the beginning allowed the draft only on bounties, that would be already something (if USA pays those new companies at least it can't immediately build troops).

[Heldenkaiser]

Since the manpower pool is not assessed on state level but on national level, a draft call for USA for example, allows the player to build all 200 (still an example) conscript all in MD ...

But the maximum number of buildable units is set on the state level, isn't it? You buy units by state, and there is a rather low (one-digit, or low two-digit) total number, depending on the size of the state. So in fact, you can't build an army all in MD ... although a large state will supply one or even two divisions. In my limited experience.

[Brochgale]

But the maximum number of buildable units is set on the state level, isn't it? You buy units by state, and there is a rather low (one-digit, or low two-digit) total number, depending on the size of the state. So in fact, you can't build an army all in MD ... although a large state will supply one or even two divisions. In my limited experience.

Also there is another limitation of sorts - if you are a player who likes to build divisions with a certain balance of elements. i.e you cant build brigades in Georgia without having cavalry attached. So to build a balanced division you often have to assemble brigades from several States. Not all places are quick about building brigades either.
Also most of us are nervous about recruiting brigades in the front line and border States for obvious reasons. So we will tend to try and build them away from front line?

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Heldenkaiser]

Historically, the CSA was the first to pass a Conscription Act in April 1862. The USA didn't follow suit until January 1863. These are interesting factoids to possibly be applied to this situation, though, since it is a game, delaying the USA that long might not be for the best, game wise. This does give me historical precedence to at least delay the CSA draft until Apr 62, maybe to have the USA follow suit a few months later?

But let's not forget that we are not trying to recreate history, but rather to explore the possibilities of a historical situation, under historical restrictions. What is rightly within the realm of the player to do (in this case, as the overall commander of a nation at war) should be possible in the game--with the appropriate political costs and historical consequences of course. In other words, could Lincoln have declared a draft in 1861? But yes, of course. He didn't, but he could have. Could Davis have done it? Sure. So I think it should remain possible.

My 3 cents.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Mynok]

There should still be some thought on the consequences of the draft in the CSA in my opinion. I'm not sure that there is enough of an economic penalty for it, nor am I sure there is a good method of measuring what the penalty ought to be in truth.

[runyan99]

If you disallow the draft in 1861, then delay the draft until April 1862, I suspect there won't be enough Confederate forces in the west to fight a hypothetical Shiloh in April.

Be careful what you do.

[Mynok]

Possiblity true....but as it stands, I can draft and boost my economic production quite handily. Not sure that was possible in reality.

[Norse]

If, for example Grant had decided to continue his drinking binge and resigned they liklely would have had this problem and Im sure Jeff Davis, RE Lee, et al would have found a way to convert these into divisions. The 20K plus troops from Ft, Doneldson would have been a nice start on having too many divisions. Sorry boys go back home we dont have the ability to make you into a functioning division....hmmmm I dont think so.

You don't think so? Think again.

The Confederacy called for volunteers, but way too many signed up to join the fight. The Confederacy didn't have the resources to enroll so many right away, so they had to send over 200 000 volunteers home.

You wrote: "Sorry boys go back home we dont have the ability to make you into a functioning division...."

Yes, that is exactly what happened.

http://www.answers.com/topic/confederate-army-2

"At the outset, the South had more volunteers than it could arm and equip, forcing the army to turn away some 200,000 volunteers that it would soon sorely miss."

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

I ve been reviewing figures... And I believe that "drastical" non draft at all for a year could change the game too much. It will be somewhat boring during 15 turns! And we can not allow for it. It must be playable (plausible, but not historical) and enjoyable.

I d not change it so hard .

*** Another problems arise...
If mobilize 600 conscript points are not allowable since the very start, then CSA will have lots of money/ WS to spend.

So their armies will be plentiful of artillery / columbiads / ships / ironclads / engineers and so on, as not enough WS to spend on regular troops as before. Printing should not be a need... And a bit more "boring"!

Perhaps production figures should be then revised accordingly?
***

If I could decide, I believe just upgrading a bit the Morale Hit for a Full mobilization (and perhaps other options) on both sides could help reducing final total manpower and solve a bit the problem on total CP allowable.

Another option (dont know if moddable) this morale penalty could hit the most the first to ask for it.

***
According to figures I ve read in this thread, CSA raised between 700.000 and 1.400.000 men.

This means raised manpower between 70 and 140 divisions!

Just they could not raise them all in a single day, but during all the war...

----
Remember the problem is just than perhaps CSA can raise 36 divisions instead on the original 24, if those conditions arise:

1.- No Attrition OPTION
2.- Few casualties on both sides
3.- CSA maxing all than he can.
and so on.
4.- War is going well for them

[GShock]

I think slight modifications will not solve the problem. The game was conceived to be what it is and if anything should be changed, the start must come from the economic system. (i.e. real production/investments + upkeep + population levels adjustments to production and this combo must be historically accurate).

Next, you rebuild the map assigning a VP to each location. VP should take in consideration the strategic importance of militrary artillery production and recruiting centers and these VP should not be cumulative. You decide: when CSA has lost 80% of VP it will surrender (for example) and that's it. All options should use NM and not VP as modifiers thereafter.

Finally, you reassess the ccv to 1 = 100 men and build from the figures produced by the 2 guys (1 is Jagger, the other's name i forgot sorry!) all existing Bdes and new ones. Reassess production costs, location costs and manpower costs, ultimately rebalance the replacement costs on these new ones.

That's my 5c. Reprise of what i've been saying for a year so far

[Coregonas]

I ve been able to recruit more "elements" (so divisions) than historical only by buying the extremely cheaper units in WS/money/conscripts.

Many people loves all those 161 power 7 brigade elements. But just single units can do the job in the long run. The idea behind is:

What is better in the game? a 600 power division with 18 elements, or 2 280 poor power divisions with 36 elements?.

In the long run, playing historic attrition seems better the first way. But in a battle, I believe the second option better, as cohesion is going to be the winner factor.

I dont believe the game giving too bad figures in total numbers. The game is not being unrealistic is just being unhistorical if you wish!

CSA did BIG divisions and USA did small divisions.

BUT as the game forces us (for simplicity of the game/battle engine, I believe it is ok as it is) to make equal sized divisions, then CSA must be allowed to have "proportionally" more divisions than the real ratio.. THATS ALL.

[soundoff]

On the subject of Divisions but not related to the issue of numbers I'd like to see a requirement that every division has to have a supply train attached. I've always found it odd that I am able to march several armies all over the map and in some strange way replenish supplies in an almost mystical fashion. I have visions of hordes of unescorted supply wagons forever roaming around the countryside just waiting for my troops to billet down for the night.

I would not take it down further than divisional level, just to keep things simple but it seems to me it would be fairly easy to implement as its no different than saying a division needs a commander in order to form.

It would also provide an additional cost in having to form a division. If supply trains were made more expensive as well ......now that might make players think more about the number they create.

Anyway just my tuppence worth

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Heldenkaiser]

That's the point, under the then existing historical political restrictions Lincoln couldn't have declared a draft right off the first year of the war... nor for that matter, not until after the mid-term elections in the Fall of 1862... This was one of the historical reasons for why a Federal draft was not pursued prior to Jan 1863 and only then after the South had already declared their own first, which helped give him the leverage for the Federal draft. He had to consolidate his political power and not alienate the support he already had. In game, in my opinion, this is a very historical reason to adjust the draft options to start later.

But aren't you really saying, rather than "he couldn't have done it", he could have done it, but (in his judgement) with really serious political consequences?

The game isn't saying (as it could with equal justification) "Lincoln just couldn't remove McClellan, so you (the player) can't". It says "sure, you can remove McClellan, but since it would have bordered on political suicide for Lincoln, you pay a really stiff penalty in VP and NM".

Or the game doesn't say "Lincoln would never have invaded Kentucky, so you can't". It says "you can invade Kentucky, but the state will go Reb, now live with it".

In the game, the player is in Lincoln's (or Davis's) shoes. Anything they could materially do, he should be able to do--and bear the consequences, just as they had to bear them. The game should prevent the player from doing the physically impossible--but not from doing the politically "impossible" (nothing is really "impossible" in politics). You can play with options--you pay the price.

Or so my thinking would be.

[GShock]

You are talking about redesigning the entire game. Something that is just not possible. We need to be more objective and gradual in the rework.

Things such as this can be done in a beta and deliver a new design with little efforts and in total secrecy with a parallel development.

I like your thinking about "Supply trains". It goes along with something I said in another "Beta" thread regarding the ease at which armies can stay supplied when moving into enemy territory.

Might be possible to achieve by adding the supply element(s) to the HQ. In this case, Corp/DIV HQ could be a logical choice.

[arsan]

Things such as this can be done in a beta and deliver a new design with little efforts and in total secrecy with a parallel development.

Yeah, sure, no effort... tell that to the guy who is supposed to modify and later test half the game data
Some of your ideas sounds good... and could had been used two years ago on the designing of AACW o maybe could be used for a AACW2 if its made sometime.
But AACW has been out for a year. You cannot expect Pocus and co to redesign the game at this point even if they agreed with your ideas... specially when the game is not broken at all IMHO.
The idea discussed here (i think) is to make a tweak or two to improve the conscriptions options. A tweak, not a new system.
I think not allowing draft until 1862 could be a good idea.
But in addition the drafts should be made much costlier in NM and VP.
Lincoln and Davis had a lot of problems with it (political problems, riots, discontent, deserting...) but in game the cost is so low that drafting every year is a no brainer.
Don't know if it would be feasible, but maybe the cost could be made much higher until middle 1862 instead of not allowing draft at all in 1861.
You would be able to draft earlier, but at such a cost that it would not be advisable in most circumstances... like removing McCllelan.
Regards

[Rafiki]

Things such as this can be done in a beta and deliver a new design with little efforts and in total secrecy with a parallel development.

I'm with Gray; I think you're underestimating the effort needed, both for coding, database work and testing before this is even playable.

Might be possible to achieve by adding the supply element(s) to the HQ. In this case, Corp/DIV HQ could be a logical choice.

Div HQs have been tried. Even if they may have had some merit in theory, they didn't work out.

You cannot expect Pocus and co to redesign the game at this point even if they agreed with your ideas... specially when the game is not broken at all IMHO.

Amen

(Should've expected Arsan to write a good reply while I was trying to write one myself )

[GShock]

I'm with Gray; I think you're underestimating the effort needed, both for coding, database work and testing before this is even playable.

Doesn't have to be playable but has to make everyone understand if the path is possible at all. It wasn't intended as a current development possibility but for AACW2.

Div HQs have been tried. Even if they may have had some merit in theory, they didn't work out.

I arrived when they had already been suppressed, did the div hq include the supply element or was it the same as the Army HQ (hq+field arty)?

[Rafiki]

No supply or artillery; just the HQ element

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Gray_Lensman]

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[Coregonas]

I dont know the base figures, just my experience:

All conscription depends on NM or NMC values.

a) standard conscription / turn
Every city gives a value (dont know where in the DB)
This value is factored by the NMC in each city
Then rounded to the nearest integer
Then added to the total values.

With the initial city deployment:
28 conscriptions are raised with NMC 100 or 105
18 with NMC 95

This can just be explained if the conscription values on the "database" in several cities have halfs: 1.5; 2.5,
rounded to 2; 3 if NMC is 100/105
or rounded to 1; 2 if NMC is 95

[Coregonas]

b) DRAFT values (Volunteers, Mobilizations)

Dont know exactly, but in this case values are directly modified by NM, not by NMC.

Seems to me than the total value on these drafts is a factor to the same city bases. But absolutely unknown for me what are exact values

What is nearly exact is than every NM point adds 3 extra volunteer / mobilize conscription companies.
Other than this, seems the values are calculated something similar this way:

Free volunteers = 5 x Base Value
1000$ volunteers = 8 x BV
2000$ = 10,5 x BV
3000$ = 12,5 x BV

Partial Mobilization = 15 x BV
Full Mobilization = 20 x BV

Apart from this add +/- 3 companies to the total men raised for every NM value apart from 100

[Gray_Lensman]

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[arsan]

Coregonas
Are you sure it's NM and not VP what modifies the drafts/volunteers numbers??
The text on the ledger says its victory points...

[Coregonas]

yes. its NM

VP affects money options.

gray:
remember im just a player, dont know anything on the real figures!