Bombard strategy vs forts

[Jarkko]

Best bombard strategy vs forts is to not bombard.

I believe this is working as intended (seeing the offensive and defensive firing values of the forts) but I believe not all new players know this (at least I didn't). Thus I believe it might be of some interest for new players, as I suspect the more veteran players are well aware of this and will "ruthlessly" use it in PBeM games

See for my pre-liminary ramblings on the matter here


Test nr 1.

Admiral Foote with a 129 power (read: *BIG* for a river-fleet) fleet vs Island 10 fort and garrison.

The garrison before bombardment:



Foote is ordered to move back and forth around Island 10.

In all the fort and garrison was able to score 18 hits on Footes ships. That made a couple ships slightly red, enough for them to stay in port for one turn. The garrison on Island 10 however was evaporated, and thus a single regiment could walk in and take it.


Test nr 2.

Admiral Palmer with a fleet of 133 power (read: pretty damn small for an ocean fleet) vs Fort St.Philp and garrison (near New Orleans).



Palmer is commanded to move back and forth adjacent to Ft.St Philip (from "North Mississippi Delta" to "Lower Mississippi River" and back and forth).

In all, the fort was able to score 22 hits on Palmers fleet, just a scratch. The garrison on the other had was again evaporated. Thus a single regiment can now land and take the fort.



What is more interesting, it takes 5-7 days to unload a regiment from a ship, while it takes 1-2 days for a fleet to move from area to area. Thus, take along two fleets. One to bombard, one to transport. The transport holds still and unloads the regiment, while the bombarding fleet runs back and forth (even with a slow start they'll be able to nuke twice on the fort, which is enough according to my tests).



If you want to be safe, just make the invasion a two turn project (but you can then safely take several forts in one go). On turn one the transport fleets move to position adjacent to the forts, while the bombard fleet moves from fort to fort nuking the garrisons to dust. On turn two the transport-fleets unload the infantry on to the garrisons (and the bombard fleet can return to port to lick its minor wounds and prepare for next bombard run).



One can but wonder why the Bombard command can be used only in conjunction with a land attack, as the fleets are very capable to turn forts to dust in just one turn. Also, using the Bombard command allows the fort to shoot with its *much* higher Defensive fire, which makes them way more effective against fleets. No wonder I used to make my amphibious attempts go poo-poo, but with this new (new for me, that is) strategy it is easy as eating pie

[Captain]

Jarko,

In one of my games my opponent who is a very good player did exactly that. In the first few months he destroyed no less than 6 of my forts with no effort at all and there was absolutely nothing as the sth I could do to stop him

[Mr Spoons]

I don't understand this.

Every time I put a ship or fleet in the same area as a fort, I usually end up with a collection of wooden splinters and large colanders sitting on the bed of whichever bit of river or sea this is on.

One thing I can't help but notice in your examples is that both fort garrisons are vastly understrength (4 and 26 compared to 65 and 89 in the game I'm playing). I tried with your "don't click bombard" method which resulted in a dead ironclad which inflicted 0 hits on the fort. Maybe the need is for a fleet to spread the damage, but as I am playing Confederate in that game, my fleets are very few and far between.

[Redeemer]

What orders do you give you fleets on their run? ie, are they in a defense posture with defend?

[Jarkko]

Sending single boats or small fleets is folly But USA has a crapload of ships sitting in the Ocean boxes. Use them. On the Mississippi, build up a fleet first, no point in sending ships alone.

Redeemer, Defensive posture works fine, altough I am not quite sure if the fleet has a higher evade chance then. It is the fort that is doing the attack when you move around the fort, but you do *not* want to evade

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Jarkko]

Looks like what is needed here to make fort bombardment more realistic is to "block" hits against the garrison units themselves until the structure is actually pounded to rubble. Wouldn't this more closely represent the general results of naval vs fort bombardment?

In my opinion, that would be exactly what would be needed

[Redeemer]

Just tried this in defensive posture with no results, neither side engaged. I will keep trying.

[Jarkko]

Just tried this in defensive posture with no results, neither side engaged. I will keep trying.

You are moving back and forth between adjacent areas next to the fort? Just moving to the fort and doing nothing won't do anything

[Redeemer]

You are moving back and forth between adjacent areas next to the fort? Just moving to the fort and doing nothing won't do anything

I tried attacking fort clark twice. Once on Defensive Posture, once on Attack Posture, both times without the bombard order. I moved back and forth from cape hatteras to hatteras inlet to ocracoke inlet with no results, no engagements on any of the forts. Dahlgren is my fleet commander (evade is off as well) I have 15 units of 253 power atm.

[patryn8]

Thats because I know the counter to this particular tactic once its started

[Jabberwock]

Three ideas.

1. Try moving through Pamlico Sound.

2. The artillery at Ft. Clark may have starved, leaving an infantry-only garrison behind.

3. Add in the blockade fleet.

P.S. Repeated kudos to Jarkko for this grand exploit.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Jarkko]

P.S. Repeated kudos to Jarkko for this grand exploit.

Well thank you Altough I am pretty sure you veterans of he game knew it already before, as it was/is so obvious

[Jabberwock]

Well thank you Altough I am pretty sure you veterans of he game knew it already before, as it was/is so obvious

Some may have, but I had been avoiding fleets vs. forts for a year before you made it public. I had some of the basic principles figured out, but hadn't put them together into an executable operation.

[Mangudai]

I'm not having much success with this strategy. The bombard part is working, but one militia is not enough to take a fort.

[Banks6060]

An interesting exploit indeed. Could probably use some attention from the dev team. I'd rather just be able to more effectively bombard a fort using the button rather than remembering to move my ships back and forth.

But then again I'm a really lazy dude.

[Deca]

Does this still work?

I placed my fleet (strength 467) on Defensive and had them move in/out of the area around Ft Caswel.

As you can see, my fleet was attacked 3x for a total of 64 hits on my fleet and 35 hits on the enemy.

When I loaded up a new game from the CSA, I can see that the "default" garrison has the following:

Caswell Garrison 1 Element w/ 20 hits
Caswell Artillery 1 Element w/ 8 hits
Caswell Batteries 1 Element w/ 12 hits

Hence, it would see that based upon the number of hits that I did not even kill all of the units if they only still had the "default" garrison units, right?

Did I do something wrong? I can see the army flag still there, too.

Would a Bombard have been better (done more damage to them) even though it would have done more damage to my fleet, too?

http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=acwpassivebombardcs0.jpg

[Jarkko]

Deca, I would say you have encountered quite a rare fluke Notice the numbers in 2nd salvo, they are not in line at all (you scored just 6 hits while the fort got 32 (!!!) hits). My bet is that the RNG had a field day, and I think you wouldn't see similar results even if you tried dozens of times


Then again, who knows, maybe forts were "stealth-buffed" in 1.13 But instead of forts being any good always and all rounds, they are now somewhat good only during 2nd salvo Just kidding of course, but in my opinion it would be *good* for the game to see consistently similar results as you saw in your example on the 2nd salvo

[TheDoctorKing]

Couple of thoughts on this:

The CSA can make life significantly harder for any USA player using this strategy by investing in some Heavy Artillery replacements. If the garrisons are full up instead of being at 20% or less remaining hits they will put some serious hurt on attacking Yankee fleets. Of course, those replacements cost the earth. Each one you buy is about five batteries of field arty. you can't afford. But if you have some signal that your opponent in a PBEM game is going to try this, it might be worth the investment.

I think this is reasonable. In the actual event, the US Navy tried bombarding Confederate harbor forts on several occasions, with mixed results. In the early war, when CSA garrisons were understrength and forts poorly designed, US naval forces were able to capture forts at Hatteras Inlet and Port Royal with relative ease and light casualties. Later on, with better-designed fortifications and larger garrisons, Confederate defenders were able to hold off naval attackers at Charleston. US fleets bypassed the forts at the mouth of the Mississippi and Mobile Bay, capturing them later from the land side after ground forces landed upriver. A similar attempt to capture Charleston by land forces was unsuccessful (as depicted in the movie Glory) and the city did not fall until attacked near the end of the war by Sherman's forces.

[Banks6060]

Couple of thoughts on this:

The CSA can make life significantly harder for any USA player using this strategy by investing in some Heavy Artillery replacements. If the garrisons are full up instead of being at 20% or less remaining hits they will put some serious hurt on attacking Yankee fleets. Of course, those replacements cost the earth. Each one you buy is about five batteries of field arty. you can't afford. But if you have some signal that your opponent in a PBEM game is going to try this, it might be worth the investment.

I think this is reasonable. In the actual event, the US Navy tried bombarding Confederate harbor forts on several occasions, with mixed results. In the early war, when CSA garrisons were understrength and forts poorly designed, US naval forces were able to capture forts at Hatteras Inlet and Port Royal with relative ease and light casualties. Later on, with better-designed fortifications and larger garrisons, Confederate defenders were able to hold off naval attackers at Charleston. US fleets bypassed the forts at the mouth of the Mississippi and Mobile Bay, capturing them later from the land side after ground forces landed upriver. A similar attempt to capture Charleston by land forces was unsuccessful (as depicted in the movie Glory) and the city did not fall until attacked near the end of the war by Sherman's forces.

Yes, as the CSA, if you buy 2 heavy artillery replacements at the beginning of the game...the Shore batteries will be quite a bit more effective against enemy ships. It's worth it IMHO.