[RUS] Looking for Red and Southern White players (Adm Kolchak campaign)

[Altaris]

Did you have any other Red units in that same region with Stalin? My understanding is that the army unit (with the three-star general) will not initiate combat if there is any other friendly units in the same region.

Huh... I will try and see. I did have a partisan unit already in the region on Blue/Green with Evade Combat orders, but I agree with Orel, that's a bad rule if that's what caused it.

[Altaris]

Orel, if you are working on a mod, one thing that I did in my WW1 mod was to make the elements battalion size rather than regimental. So divisions built contained 8 battalions and 4 artillery units, a total of 12 elements. With 33 elements being the most you can fit into a "division" that is a combined unit in this game, it makes the combined units essentially a corps strength. The battalions all had 10 hits a piece rather than the 32 the regiments have. This helped even out some of what you are referring to with the hits situations. I understand that aspect of this game, but I just don't have enough 1-star generals to be able to effectively combine all the divisions I've built, so some end up having to be outside units. With 10 hit elements, even when combined, they still would lose some elements in pretty much all fights, which kept the rather unrealistic situations of 20-30 destroyed elements on what side vs 0 or 1 on the other from happening (this also kept the really lop-sided NM hits from being as common too). Lastly, it makes it harder to sling 4500 CP stacks around all over the place, since you can't combine 6-7 divisions into one combined unit.

I also think that the command limits are too high... 48 CP command limit is a LOT of units. I think it's more realistic to have 24 be the cap (you can still have big battles b/c of MTSG, but the stacks fight separately rather than one huge melee of 100K men on the field at one time.

[Philo32b]

The partisan must have done it. Any friendly unit separate from the army stack--even a supply unit--will prevent the general from initiating a battle: http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?27032-Do-*not*-use-army-generals-as-stack-commanders.

[Altaris]

Interesting, I did not know this, good info to have.

Orel, I'd be interested in hearing your mod ideas, I've spent a lot of time modding AGEOD games, I might be able to help you out.

[Orel]

Orel, if you are working on a mod, one thing that I did in my WW1 mod was to make the elements battalion size rather than regimental. So divisions built contained 8 battalions and 4 artillery units, a total of 12 elements. With 33 elements being the most you can fit into a "division" that is a combined unit in this game, it makes the combined units essentially a corps strength. The battalions all had 10 hits a piece rather than the 32 the regiments have. This helped even out some of what you are referring to with the hits situations. I understand that aspect of this game, but I just don't have enough 1-star generals to be able to effectively combine all the divisions I've built, so some end up having to be outside units. With 10 hit elements, even when combined, they still would lose some elements in pretty much all fights, which kept the rather unrealistic situations of 20-30 destroyed elements on what side vs 0 or 1 on the other from happening (this also kept the really lop-sided NM hits from being as common too). Lastly, it makes it harder to sling 4500 CP stacks around all over the place, since you can't combine 6-7 divisions into one combined unit.

I also think that the command limits are too high... 48 CP command limit is a LOT of units. I think it's more realistic to have 24 be the cap (you can still have big battles b/c of MTSG, but the stacks fight separately rather than one huge melee of 100K men on the field at one time.

Technically speaking, battalions of the Imperial army I believe were around a 1000 men. So were the companies, of around 250 men, plus during the Civil war in the White Armies, there were "training" battalions. So what I have done so far, is I have left the regiments as is but I made it possible to add other elements of the same family. That makes it realistic, since in the White Army there would be battalions representing old Imperial regiments in other regiments(so for example in the Markov Officer Regiment there would be the Grenadiers batallion). Although making regiments into battalions id something I have considered doing, but I will have to think about that a bit more.

Towards the command limits, I have to agree that the battlefields are too densely packed with troops. I don't even understand why there is such a thing as the control percentage of area away from railroads, since it really does not matter. All that matters are railroads and cities since via them passes the supply while all the rest of the territory is essentially wasteland through which occasionally passes a unit on the way to a city.

The way I thought of dealing with this is the addition of a bonus for attacking from different directions, but that is impossible due to game engine limitations.

[Orel]

Interesting, I did not know this, good info to have.

Orel, I'd be interested in hearing your mod ideas, I've spent a lot of time modding AGEOD games, I might be able to help you out.

Thanks for the offer Altaris.

I will be starting a thread probably in the second half of next week about the mod. The mod initially had dealt with reforming armored trains, but now it also deals more with giving Reds and Whites troops of different cost and quality.

[Altaris]

There really needs to be a way of training up conscripts beyond the one lone general in Moscow. All those ex-Imperial officers should have training capability, as well as Trotsky (who perhaps should have an even better training ability). The Red Army should be a rabble in 1918 and 1919 but gradually get better. Both White sides have pretty decent training capability, the Reds should have at least something on par with them, probably more.

I had the same struggle as you over battalions vs regiments. I liked regiments better, but the ultimate deciding factor for me was that combined units have a hard-coded cap of 33 elements, and there's no way to differentiate what those elements are. So regardless of what you do, it's going to be possible to stuff 32 regiments into one combined unit (well, there is a hard cap of something like 8 individual units, but this can easily be enough to fit 32 regiments in via divisions). 32 regiments is just way too much - that's a whole friggin army in and of itself, that will always get committed together. Probably why RUS battles end up being so bloody - if you've ever played ROP, it suffers the same problem for the same reason.

The battalions set up is a lot better and more realistic. Fights tend to be more evened out and losses take longer to recover from. With AGEOD engine, it takes very little time to recover from hits, but a division that loses most of its elements is out of the game for at least 3-4 months. And it helps avoid the super-stacks of 4000 CP doom armies blowing holes through lines and just trucking along. It's still very possible to open holes in the line in a similar fashion, but you have to do it in "wave" attacks with multiple corps, and the first one usually gets beat up pretty bad softening the target up, then the second one punches the hole. After that, rest and recuperation are required rather than a quick 1 turn rest followed by the steady steam-roller effect. Makes wars more than a one-stop battle.

[Orel]

There really needs to be a way of training up conscripts beyond the one lone general in Moscow. All those ex-Imperial officers should have training capability, as well as Trotsky (who perhaps should have an even better training ability). The Red Army should be a rabble in 1918 and 1919 but gradually get better. Both White sides have pretty decent training capability, the Reds should have at least something on par with them, probably more.

I had the same struggle as you over battalions vs regiments. I liked regiments better, but the ultimate deciding factor for me was that combined units have a hard-coded cap of 33 elements, and there's no way to differentiate what those elements are. So regardless of what you do, it's going to be possible to stuff 32 regiments into one combined unit (well, there is a hard cap of something like 8 individual units, but this can easily be enough to fit 32 regiments in via divisions). 32 regiments is just way too much - that's a whole friggin army in and of itself, that will always get committed together. Probably why RUS battles end up being so bloody - if you've ever played ROP, it suffers the same problem for the same reason.

The battalions set up is a lot better and more realistic. Fights tend to be more evened out and losses take longer to recover from. With AGEOD engine, it takes very little time to recover from hits, but a division that loses most of its elements is out of the game for at least 3-4 months. And it helps avoid the super-stacks of 4000 CP doom armies blowing holes through lines and just trucking along. It's still very possible to open holes in the line in a similar fashion, but you have to do it in "wave" attacks with multiple corps, and the first one usually gets beat up pretty bad softening the target up, then the second one punches the hole. After that, rest and recuperation are required rather than a quick 1 turn rest followed by the steady steam-roller effect. Makes wars more than a one-stop battle.

You will be surprised but another person actually has made a mod where he gave the training abilities to 5-6 other Red commanders in which I am currently playing. So far(Spring of 1919) the creator has said it is not very successful, however the real action has not started yet so we cannot really judge it properly yet.

If we are giving all Red Imperial officers this ability, then almost all White officers have no less of a right for it.

I have met the opinion that the Red army stops being rabble by 1918, but I have to say I disagree. It does become better, but it still is a revolutionary army and cannot be a match for the Imperial order army.

It is quite rare to see a 32 000 division. The Imperial Army corps of 1914 that has 100% of its strength, should consist of 48 700 men. We will write off 8700 men to account for the cavalry division, then divide that by two(two infantry divisions) and we get around 20 000 per division. Now of course Civil war divisions were smaller, but still the maximum value we can get for a civil war division with 500 battalions as the smallest unit is 16 000, that is without any artillery or support units. Of course that could be implemented. however that also requires a bit of time from my side, when I experience a lack of it to even finish off what I have already planned.

The concept of rotating corps is applicable but not on the Ageod engine due to two week turns. If Ageod would create something like what they have in HOI when you can pick the hour of attack and synchronize it with the one of other troops things would be different. But for now, I don't see an alternative for huge stacks.

P. S.: I'll start the mod thread today.

[Philo32b]

There really needs to be a way of training up conscripts beyond the one lone general in Moscow. All those ex-Imperial officers should have training capability, as well as Trotsky (who perhaps should have an even better training ability). The Red Army should be a rabble in 1918 and 1919 but gradually get better. Both White sides have pretty decent training capability, the Reds should have at least something on par with them, probably more.

Wasn't the use of the ex-Imperial officers a cause of some division among the Bolsheviks? Perhaps getting additional trainer-officers could be one of the options that you sacrifice EP and NM for (along the lines of printing money or partial mobilization), signifying taking on additional waves of ex-Imperial officers. That would make it a strategic decision, to be weighed against other things you need that EP and NM for.

[Altaris]

The concept of rotating corps is applicable but not on the Ageod engine due to two week turns. If Ageod would create something like what they have in HOI when you can pick the hour of attack and synchronize it with the one of other troops things would be different. But for now, I don't see an alternative for huge stacks.

P. S.: I'll start the mod thread today.

MTSG allows for rotating corps very well. You can time the arrival of same-army corps so that they are within a region of one another very easily (I do this all the time as it is). Basically creates situations where mutliple corps cover a range of regions and provide reserve support to one another as needed. That's much more realistic than having 80-100K men attacking at one time in a big stack.

[Altaris]

Reds aren't going down without a fight! Stalin ravages the Kuban, while Kharkov comes under siege!

Speaking of Kharkov, very weird that I have a 3000ish CP stack on Red/Red hit the city guarded by only about 100 CP, and yet it doesn't get taken.

[Orel]

Reds aren't going down without a fight! Stalin ravages the Kuban, while Kharkov comes under siege!

Speaking of Kharkov, very weird that I have a 3000ish CP stack on Red/Red hit the city guarded by only about 100 CP, and yet it doesn't get taken.

It is even more weird that your 3000ish stack passed right through my Markov corps that was in attack posture.

But no worries! The Armed Forces of South of Russia(AFSR) will liberate the peasants and workers unwillingly serving in the Red Army and will allow them to pay back their socialist oppressors all that they owe.

By the way Altaris, since you have done the WWI mod on 1914, would you be interested in learning how Tannenberg really occurred?

[Altaris]

By the way Altaris, since you have done the WWI mod on 1914, would you be interested in learning how Tannenberg really occurred?

Sure! I was always under the impression that a lot of it had to do with the personal animosity between the 1st and 2nd Army generals, combined with intel the Germans got from overhearing unencrypted wirless messages, but I'm always up for info on this time period.

In game, I'm representing this by a one-time event the Germans can play when Russians are on German territory. When played, any Russians on German soil suffer a big -66% hit to cohesion that turn, making them pretty vunerable for that turn and the next. I tried multiple ways of creating a scenario where Germans could really put a major hurting on the Russians for one turn, and this ended up being the best approach I could find. All my other approaches were too open to exploit by one side or the other. I like this implementation b/c it gives lot of options.

[Altaris]

Phil, you should go ahead and get that big 4K stack you have at Samara marching across the Volga.... otherwise, there won't be anything left to grab b4 Orel is in Moscow Don't worry, I've got my plate too full trying to somehow contain 2.5 Souther uber-stacks to do anything about yours...

[Philo32b]

Moscow? No, I've got my sights on an even bigger target: Turkestan!

[ERISS]

I don't even understand why there is such a thing as the control percentage of area away from railroads, since it really does not matter. All that matters are railroads and cities since via them passes the supply while all the rest of the territory is essentially wasteland through which occasionally passes a unit on the way to a city.

And where comes from this supply? : from those non mattering wastelands. Green and makhnovists didn't need towns and railroads, and other armies had to kill paesants here to control their lands, if armies want to have supplies.

I have met the opinion that the Red army stops being rabble by 1918, but I have to say I disagree. It does become better, but it still is a revolutionary army and cannot be a match for the Imperial order army.

By 1920 Red army is a big mass which hardly fight and move. Only by the numbers it can succeed, and even sometimes number is no enough and need some motivated troops like the makhnovist to succeed localy on hard points. Sure, one vs one, red or makhnovist is no match for professional trained soldiers.

[Orel]

And where comes from this supply? : from those non mattering wastelands. Green and makhnovists didn't need towns and railroads, and other armies had to kill paesants here to control their lands, if armies want to have supplies.

True Eriss, but that is not how it is in the game. The supplies, from my understanding, is generated mainly in the cities and depots in RUS. The supplies produced by the countryside is so little, that it makes the countryside pointless of being controlled.

[le Anders]

As I understood the manual, only cities of a certain size produce supplies.

[Altaris]

So just out of curiosity, are you having any difficulty whatsoever keeping that big 2500 CP stack of cavalry supplied? I would think you can feed it fine from the depot stocks that are getting raped incessantly.

[Orel]

So just out of curiosity, are you having any difficulty whatsoever keeping that big 2500 CP stack of cavalry supplied? I would think you can feed it fine from the depot stocks that are getting raped incessantly.

Not as much as taking Moscow with its 6000+ stack of Trotsky. Some difficulties are encountered, but in the Ice March there were not enough bullets, in the 2nd Kuban Campaign there weren't enough conscripts and by Kharkov there were not enough troops: but when has that stopped the White army from advancing to Moscow?

By the way, any difficulties supplying 6000+ stack of Trotsky by Moscow?

[Altaris]

By the way, any difficulties supplying 6000+ stack of Trotsky by Moscow?

Actually I am. That stack wiped out my Moscow supply in one turn since all my other depots close by can simply be overrun at a whim. I might be able to get some supply redistributed, but my control of my rail lines is so tenuous, I'm not holding my breath. I actually wish I could destroy all my depots in my interior areas, I think it would hamper the enemy more than me at this point.

I will consider making it into 1920 to be something of an accomplishment in this game, probably the best that can be hoped for at this point.

[Altaris]

That's ALOT of supply wagons I caught around Kursk and Kharkov the last two turns! I hope it's going towards helping starve those guys hanging out around Moscow...

[Altaris]

Well, unless the Southern Whites suddenly starve to death this turn, I believe that pretty much wraps this game up. I threw 160K men against 80K and took 50K losses as opposed to them losing a mere 9K or so. Since I have no way to defend my rail lines, my stacks around Moscow will starve in about 2 more turns.

[Orel]

Well, unless the Southern Whites suddenly starve to death this turn, I believe that pretty much wraps this game up. I threw 160K men against 80K and took 50K losses as opposed to them losing a mere 9K or so. Since I have no way to defend my rail lines, my stacks around Moscow will starve in about 2 more turns.

To be honest, I have symmetrical problems with supplies. Though the battle is won, I cannot storm Moscow with my exhausted men. It seems in 1920, I will have to build a new army.

Drozdovsky died: alas! He was a brave soul that died on the battlefield after defeating his foes!

[Altaris]

Let's finish it up, you guys should be able to knock Moscow out and end this war as 1920 rolls in.

This game has so much potential, but the balance is way out of whack. I stand by that being an issue of stack size and lack of supply limitations.

[Philo32b]

This game has so much potential, but the balance is way out of whack. I stand by that being an issue of stack size and lack of supply limitations.

Is it correct that when the game first came out, only the Reds could recruit in brigades? If there needs to be a re-balance, perhaps trying a house rule that the Whites cannot recruit in brigades would help. Or if that would result in lopsiding the balance the other way, maybe the Whites agree to only recruit to a certain number on the map. The Siberians get a number of trainers, so they can bring militia up to "half-brigades," but it takes longer and is not as good for beefing up a division to withstand damage.

[Altaris]

Well the real problem is that my strategy had to boil down to the following short list of options, none of which have any long-term feasibility:

1) Since I have to account for 5000-6000 CP stacks coming in at any direction, I need at least 3500-4000 CP stacks to have any chance of holding them off. I can at most afford 3 of these (possibly 4 if I manage not to take any losses and build heavily into 1919). So that's 3 or 4 regions that can be protected, and everything else is ultimately up for grabs by the Whites. Every time I went less than 3000 CP in a stack, it got simply destroyed by the giant Southern White stacks (which have better quality troops and better leaders in addition to superior numbers) - this in turn murdered my NM and just made the situation worse.
2) None of my depots could be protected once the Orel/Tula line was under threat (had I held off the Southerns, the Siberians would've posed just a big a threat once they got close to Moscow). This means the Whites, if they happen to run into supply issues for being horribly over-extended, can just jump in and take my supply from me. Basically that's what put the nail in the coffin for me, Orel can just build up a couple of big cavalry stacks under fast moving leaders and take any of my depots right out from underneath me. I suppose if the early war hadn't been so brutal I might have been able to keep the depots in my hands by sticking 800 CP or so stacks inside the depots, but that would end up meaning they get trapped in siege and the depots still don't help me out anymore b/c I lose access to the rail lines. In this game, even if you weren't about to take Moscow via frontal assault, I would starve in another turn or so. I'm down to 1 turn of supplies in Moscow, and no way to relieve the city and the rail lines coming into it.
3) So considering #1 and #2, the only other option I could see being a viable strategy for the Reds is to stay entirely on the defensive and give up everything short of Moscow and it's immediate surroundings. This might work for a short period of time, maybe half-way into 1920, but so much ground would be lost that I'd eventually be losing the war of attrition since I'd be getting out-built for the rest of the game by about 2:1.

In short, there's no way that the strategy you guys employed with me can be beaten, short of some miraculous luck that I happen to intercede a huge stack with an even bigger stack by accident before my lines of logistics are completely cut. It's just not do-able. Not knocking you guys for that, you played the game setup well, but it's like trying to win a basketball game 1 on 2, with only one leg to boot.

The stack size bugs me, but I think the supply issue is even worse. Orel had 80% of his army above Tula, and even though I had it completely cut off for 4-5 turns, I was in worse supply situation than he was. In reality, 250K men can't simply march thousands of miles with no regards for keeping their rear lines protected, and be no worse for the wear after months of operating in such conditions.

[Altaris]

Good game guys, thanks for playing!

Ironicially enough, when I went to load the game, the screenshot on the load game screen was of Lenin in a coffin

[Philo32b]

Yes, good game! Thanks Altaris and Orel for playing, and thank you Durk for hosting.

I appreciated the chance to learn from good, veteran players. Thanks!

[Orel]

As we say in online chess: gg(Good Game).