Chris0827
General
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Florida

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:36 pm

138 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg3 $Militiaman NULL NULL NULL 16 20 3 5 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
145 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg2 $Militiaman NULL NULL NULL 11 10 2 1 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
176 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg $Militiaman NULL NULL NULL 5 5 1 3 General 1 NULL 5 3 1


Braxton Bragg was possibly the most hated general in the Confederacy, by both the generals and the soldiers under his command. In a meeting with the generals in his command and President Davis all the generals voted to remove Bragg as commander. The Dispirited leader ability is perfect for him. I'd also raise his political value to near Lee's level. He was a friend of President Davis was able to keep his command for almost two years of defeats. The one thing Bragg was good at was training troops. A.S Johnston was so impressed with the discipline of the men Bragg brought to Corinth that he put him in charge of improving the discipline of the rest of the army. He's deserving of master driller and possibly training officer.

User avatar
Pocus
Posts: 25115
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:37 am
Location: Lyon (France)

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:49 pm

Chris0827 wrote:Braxton Bragg was possibly the most hated general in the Confederacy, by both the generals and the soldiers under his command. In a meeting with the generals in his command and President Davis all the generals voted to remove Bragg as commander. The Dispirited leader ability is perfect for him.


The trait was added with him in mind ;)

A general note on Strategic Rating: this is used for checks at the operational and above level, like succeeding in a force march, or how fast the general can react to something unexpected, marching to the sound of guns, etc. If a leader perform well during battle, then Strategic should not be used for that.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

User avatar
Korrigan
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1982
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:33 pm
Location: France

Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:34 am

138 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg3 $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 16 80 3 5 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
145 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg2 $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 11 60 2 1 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
176 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 5 20 1 3 General 1 NULL 5 3 1

Note: Militiaman and Dispirited officer were uncompatible.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain

Image

User avatar
Nathaniel
Private
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:57 pm

Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:50 pm

I am sure I read this story somewhere about Bragg in his early years in the military.
He was both a company commander and quartermaster at a fort in the West :cwboy: .
As company commander he wrote to the quartermaster asking for more supplies, and then as quartermaster replied to himself saying he did not have them. :tournepas
After an exchange of letters :bonk: , he took the correspondence to the fort commander who exclaimed, "Captain Bragg you have quarreled with every officer in the army and now you are quarreling with yourself! :confused:

Obviously a tall tale, but it does show a consistent opinion on Bragg. He must be the worst and most unpopular general to have a major army camp named after him.
They have ruined my beautiful fort.
Colonel Alfred Rhett [commander Fort Sumter 1863]

User avatar
marecone
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:04 pm

:niark: :niark: :niark: Funny story. Great stuff. More, more!

Chris0827
General
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Florida

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:27 pm

Nathaniel wrote:I am sure I read this story somewhere about Bragg in his early years in the military.
He was both a company commander and quartermaster at a fort in the West :cwboy: .
As company commander he wrote to the quartermaster asking for more supplies, and then as quartermaster replied to himself saying he did not have them. :tournepas
After an exchange of letters :bonk: , he took the correspondence to the fort commander who exclaimed, "Captain Bragg you have quarreled with every officer in the army and now you are quarreling with yourself! :confused:

Obviously a tall tale, but it does show a consistent opinion on Bragg. He must be the worst and most unpopular general to have a major army camp named after him.


I believe that a true story as scary as it sounds.

Chris0827
General
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Florida

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:50 pm

Forrest had a few things to say to Bragg.

"I am not here to pass civilities or compliments with you, but on other business. I have stood your meanness as long as i intend to. You have played the part of a damned scoundrel and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it. You may as well not issue any more orders to me, for I will not obey them... and I say to you that if you ever again try to interfere with me or cross my path it will be at the peril of your life."

This was at the end of a long series of disputes. The final straw was Bragg ordering Forrest to serve under his hated rival Joe Wheeler.

User avatar
marecone
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:44 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia

Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:57 pm

Chris0827 wrote:Forrest had a few things to say to Bragg.

"I am not here to pass civilities or compliments with you, but on other business. I have stood your meanness as long as i intend to. You have played the part of a damned scoundrel and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it. You may as well not issue any more orders to me, for I will not obey them... and I say to you that if you ever again try to interfere with me or cross my path it will be at the peril of your life."

This was at the end of a long series of disputes. The final straw was Bragg ordering Forrest to serve under his hated rival Joe Wheeler.


:niark: :niark: :niark: Very good. Funny too. This would be a nice movie scene. Thanks for a great story. These stories don't contribute too much to general ratings but raise the spirit of forum members :sourcil: . Please don't stop with posting those.
Well done guys

User avatar
Korrigan
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1982
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:33 pm
Location: France

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:46 pm

[color="SeaGreen"]
138 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg3 $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 16 80 3 5 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
145 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg2 $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 11 60 2 1 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
176 CSA Braxton Bragg ldr_CSA_Bragg $Master_Driller $Dispirited_Leader NULL NULL 5 20 1 3 General 1 NULL 5 3 1
[/color]

OK
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain



Image

beefcake
Corporal
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:03 pm

Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:49 pm

Was there ever any discussion about giving Bragg the "Quickly Angered" trait as well? Or is "Dispirited Leader" more punishing overall? to any army he commands?

I've read that during the battle of Chickamauga, Bragg tried to find out what delayed "Bishop" Polk's attack for four hours on Sept. 20. The account reports that when Bragg got Polk's response, he "swore in a manner that would have powerfully assisted a mule team in getting up a mountain." I can imagine him blowing up 'Yosemite Sam' style when it happened.

tagwyn
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1220
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:09 pm

Bragg!!

Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:15 am

I do not want to assume the role of supporter of Bragg, however, he is ill deserving of all this calumny!! Bragg won the battles of Perryville, Stone's River, and Chickamuga!! He could command an army and could win battles, however, he did not take advantage of his victories. Yes, he disagreeable, so was Forrest, but for different reasons. T

User avatar
lodilefty
Posts: 7532
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:27 pm
Location: Finger Lakes, NY GMT -5 US Eastern

Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:24 am

tagwyn wrote:I do not want to assume the role of supporter of Bragg, however, he is ill deserving of all this calumny!! Bragg won the battles of Perryville, Stone's River, and Chickamuga!! He could command an army and could win battles, however, he did not take advantage of his victories. Yes, he disagreeable, so was Forrest, but for different reasons. T


Yeah, but if you've ever stood at the top of Missionary Ridge, you have to wonder about him.... :siffle:
Always ask yourself: "Am I part of the Solution?" If you aren't, then you are part of the Problem!
[CENTER][/CENTER]
[CENTER]Visit AGEWiki - your increasingly comprehensive source for information about AGE games[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Rules for new members[/CENTER]
[CENTER]Forum Rules[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Help desk: support@slitherine.co.uk[/CENTER]

Aurelin
Colonel
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:15 pm

Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:32 am

A lucky man too. Somebody put a heavily charged 12lb shell outside his tent with in two feet of his head. It blew his bed, bedding, and tent to bits, but left him untouched.

Wonder how much of his severity stemmed from that.

User avatar
cobraII
Captain
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:47 am
Location: Kansas, USA

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:38 am

well it was really the corps commanders that won chickmauga Bragg was angry that things didnt go his way so he retired to his quarters and left everything to Polk Hardie and Longstreet

User avatar
Jabberwock
Posts: 2204
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 12:12 am
Location: Weymouth, MA
Contact: ICQ

Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:51 am

He did seem to have a preference for attacks en echelon which, considering the cooperation he inspired from subordinates, often became frontal assaults en piecemeal.
[color="DimGray"] You deserve to be spanked[/color]

Image

Chris0827
General
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:39 pm
Location: Florida

Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:09 am

Perryville and Stone's River were not Confederate victories.

User avatar
cobraII
Captain
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:47 am
Location: Kansas, USA

Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:15 am

if i remeber right Perrville was its just he retreated afterwards giving the ground to the Federal army or i could be confusing it with Murfreesboro either way he retreated after both

User avatar
Old Peter
Private
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: ME

Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:07 pm

Chris0827 wrote:Perryville and Stone's River were not Confederate victories.


Both were very close Confederate victories. At Perryville Bragg retreated because he had no supply lines. At Stones River he chickened out after inflicting heavy casualties on Rosecrans.

Old Peter

anarchyintheuk
Lieutenant
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 6:27 pm

Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:42 pm

I would tend to call Perryville a Confederate defeat and Stones River a draw, even if Bragg did retreat first.

As Tagwyn stated I hate having to defend Bragg, but the AoT had some of the sorriest excuses for corps commanders of any army, Union or Confederate, in the Civil War. These are general observations. It would be hard to find a worse subordinate than Polk. A complete backstabber that didn't obey direct orders from Bragg. In some instances this was good; however, he had a habit of obeying the bad ones and ignoring the good ones. It was unfortunate for the Confederacy that his head wasn't blown off until 1864. Hardee was also disloyal and occasionally had the 'slows'. At least he kept good discipline in his corps and was tactically proficient. Cheatham did/was neither. Hood, another backstabber, received the same loyalty as commander of the AoT that he gave as a corps commander. Longstreet tended to think of his corps attachment to the AoT as some sort of demotion or insult and obtained an independent command as soon as possible. Wheeler was a decent enough cavaly commander but was a syncophant and this made Bragg prefer him to Forrest (who rarely met a superior that he got along with or obeyed in any event). Some of these problems and deficiencies are due, in part, to Bragg's poor man management. However, their performance didn't noticably improve under Johnston or Hood.

Linenoise
Conscript
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:00 pm

Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:15 am

One of my favorite quotes from the Civil War is one of Forrest speaking to Bragg. It is utterly scathing and direct.

"I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damned scoundrel, and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it. You may as well not issue any more orders to me, for I will not obey them, and I will hold you personally responsible for any further indignities you endeavor to inflict upon me. You have threatened to arrest me for not obeying your orders promptly. I dare you to do it, and I say to you that if you ever again try to interfere with me or cross my path it will be at the peril of your life." General Forrest to General Braxton Bragg.

It makes me smile when I read it, not because I have any sort of dislike of Bragg, but the clarity of contempt in that statement amuses me greatly. :)

As this all pertains to what was thought of Bragg. After Forrest said this to Bragg, Forrest was given an independent command in central Tennessee and Bragg was removed from his command, despite his friendship with Davis.

Brochgale
Brigadier General
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Scotland
Contact: Yahoo Messenger

Confederates Fight Amongst Themselves

Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:58 am

If half of what I have read about the confederate commanders in west is correct - why did the yanks bother sending any troops out west- the confederates it seemed would have done a very good job of destroying themselves?

User avatar
Jabberwock
Posts: 2204
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 12:12 am
Location: Weymouth, MA
Contact: ICQ

Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:05 am

Brochgale wrote:If half of what I have read about the confederate commanders in west is correct - why did the yanks bother sending any troops out west- the confederates it seemed would have done a very good job of destroying themselves?


They needed something to smash their disfunctional command structure against.
[color="DimGray"] You deserve to be spanked[/color]



Image

lycortas
Sergeant
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:31 pm

bragg

Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 am

5-2-1 or 4-2-1 is how i rank Bragg. I have never read anything that suggested skill in choosing where to attack. The 'victories' he achieved were due to his subordinates not himself, especially Perryville.

Mike

Brochgale
Brigadier General
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Scotland
Contact: Yahoo Messenger

Tue May 13, 2008 12:43 am

lycortas wrote:5-2-1 or 4-2-1 is how i rank Bragg. I have never read anything that suggested skill in choosing where to attack. The 'victories' he achieved were due to his subordinates not himself, especially Perryville.

Mike


I would rank him even less than that 0 on defense for a start - Judging on his performance at Chatanooga?
"How noble is one, to love his country:how sad the fate to mingle with those you hate"
W.A.Fletcher "Memoirs Of A Confederate Soldier"

User avatar
runyan99
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:34 am

Tue May 13, 2008 12:50 am

Brochgale wrote:I would rank him even less than that 0 on defense for a start - Judging on his performance at Chatanooga?


I agree. Not only Chattanooga, but also the the ground he chose to defend at Stones River, and the way he arranged his army there, were lacking in my (and Peter Cozzen's) opinion. I think I've got Bragg rated as a 4-2-0 as an army commander. Somewhat aggressive, but not talented.

User avatar
Ace
Posts: 3496
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 pm
Location: Croatia

Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:51 pm

I hate to bring this old thread to life, but Bragg is by many considered as one of the worst generals on both sides (amongst top 10 worst generals of the war). One could argue that the resources given to him where inadequate, but 5/3/1 stats are way overrated. 4/2/0 (maybe even 3/1/0) with dispirited and quick angered describe him much better.

User avatar
Stauffenberg
Brigadier General
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Montreal
Contact: Website

Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:09 pm

Ace wrote:I hate to bring this old thread to life, but Bragg is by many considered as one of the worst generals on both sides (amongst top 10 worst generals of the war). One could argue that the resources given to him where inadequate, but 5/3/1 stats are way overrated. 4/2/0 (maybe even 3/1/0) with dispirited and quick angered describe him much better.


Top 10 worst in terms of popularity is a given, but in terms of command performance? He was essentially competent as his record indicates, but with these odd lapses in judgement and an ever-increasing talent for irking others.

I would like to see the following special event added however:
Every turn that Bragg loses a battle as an army commander with Bedford Forrest as part of his command, there is a 33% chance Bragg gets killed, on top of the usual calculation. :siffle:
Why would the CSA player put Forrest with Bragg and risk the NM loss with Bragg's death? Because, if triggered, Forrest gets a promotion.
Works for me. :thumbsup:

User avatar
Eugene Carr
Colonel
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:58 pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:43 pm

"I have stood your meanness as long as I intend to. You have played the part of a damned scoundrel, and are a coward, and if you were any part of a man I would slap your jaws and force you to resent it. You may as well not issue any more orders to me, for I will not obey them, and I will hold you personally responsible for any further indignities you endeavor to inflict upon me. You have threatened to arrest me for not obeying your orders promptly. I dare you to do it, and I say to you that if you ever again try to interfere with me or cross my path it will be at the peril of your life."


As a statement of insubordination probably only topped by Jefferson C. Davis :)

S!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

User avatar
Ace
Posts: 3496
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:33 pm
Location: Croatia

Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:48 am

Stauffenberg wrote:Top 10 worst in terms of popularity is a given, but in terms of command performance? He was essentially competent as his record indicates, but with these odd lapses in judgement and an ever-increasing talent for irking others.


Competent, you say. What about how he was outmaneuvered during Tullahoma Campaign, or how he allowed siege of Chattanooga to be lifted, when he held the higher ground, at Lookout Mountain and Missionary Ridge. And he also had more than enough time to prepare his defensive positions. It should have been the same outcome as when Burnside assaulted Mary´s Heights. That is what happens when CSA has able generals, both at army and Corps level.

User avatar
Stauffenberg
Brigadier General
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Montreal
Contact: Website

Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:13 pm

Ace wrote:Competent, you say. What about how he was outmaneuvered during Tullahoma Campaign, or how he allowed siege of Chattanooga to be lifted, when he held the higher ground, at Lookout Mountain and Missionary Ridge. And he also had more than enough time to prepare his defensive positions. It should have been the same outcome as when Burnside assaulted Mary´s Heights. That is what happens when CSA has able generals, both at army and Corps level.


“Competent” for a ACW general still leaves lots of wiggle room for bad judgement, mis-cues and blunders. Even Lee made them. Bragg was a very effective trainer and it would be hard to justify tagging him as incompetent along the line of US Banks or CSA J.B. Floyd--he did win some important battles afterall. In any case Bragg has the Dispirited Leader penalty that gives the stack he commands -5% maximum cohesion and –25% to the cohesion recovery rate. I’ve found him effective as a Corps commander. If you still end up putting him in command of an army Davis would be pleased with you. ;)

Return to “Officers room”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests