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DrPostman
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To Raze or Not to Raze.

Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:49 am

Indian villages seem to provide a convenient avenue for both sides
to base raids out of, so do you raze any and if you do why and which?
"Ludus non nisi sanguineus"

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Captain_Orso
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:10 am

I do not raise them. I garrison them so that units cannot so easily sneak up the board-edge unseen past the garrisons in Fayetteville and Fort Smith.

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Stauffenberg
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:20 pm

DrPostman wrote:Indian villages seem to provide a convenient avenue for both sides
to base raids out of, so do you raze any and if you do why and which?


:blink:
I have a gentleman's agreement with my opponent not to engage in genocide.

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DrPostman
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:02 pm

Not being a fan of genocide myself (there ought to be consequences for either side in the number of Indian units
they get if they raze a village) I have never razed them, but I've sure thought about it. My current game playing
the CSA I've decided to garrison them with Texas Rangers (other than Ft. Gibson which I plan on making a fort and
always a depot that's well defended so I can build another depot a few regions up and cause a lot of trouble in
Kansas). Other than raiding I haven't found much good for the Rangers. I've stuck them in cavalry divisions to
bulk them up but I bet they melt like butter as garrison units. I suppose I'll find out.

Here's a side question: Anyone know why the Arkansas River doesn't extend up to Ft. Gibson? It was the first
town in Oklahoma to have a steamboat landing and is right next to the river which is navigable (at least now)?
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Stauffenberg
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:13 pm

DrPostman wrote:Not being a fan of genocide myself (there ought to be consequences for either side in the number of Indian units
they get if they raze a village) I have never razed them, but I've sure thought about it. My current game playing
the CSA I've decided to garrison them with Texas Rangers (other than Ft. Gibson which I plan on making a fort and
always a depot that's well defended so I can build another depot a few regions up and cause a lot of trouble in
Kansas). Other than raiding I haven't found much good for the Rangers. I've stuck them in cavalry divisions to
bulk them up but I bet they melt like butter as garrison units. I suppose I'll find out.

Here's a side question: Anyone know why the Arkansas River doesn't extend up to Ft. Gibson? It was the first
town in Oklahoma to have a steamboat landing and is right next to the river which is navigable (at least now)?


Re Indian villages, in all seriousness I believe they did not have a fixed locale in any case--they moved around or dispersed according to the time of year.

Re Arkansas R. someone else who lives nearby mentioned to this forum that it should at least be navigable to Ft. Gibson as you say.

colonel hurst
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:16 pm

I have seen the Union build a depot at Cherokees which attracted over 500 supply. This provides a good launching point for attacks into Texas. I don't want to deal with that as the south so I usually go ahead and destroy the villages except for Ft. Gibson which is too far away to worry about.

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DrPostman
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:27 pm

colonel hurst wrote:I have seen the Union build a depot at Cherokees which attracted over 500 supply. This provides a good launching point for attacks into Texas. I don't want to deal with that as the south so I usually go ahead and destroy the villages except for Ft. Gibson which is too far away to worry about.


I've lost Ft. Smith AR from a Union attack based out of Ft. Gibson in several games. It's close enough (2 regions). And thanks
Stauffenberg. I hope they extend it for ACW2. I agree they moved a lot, but not Ft. Gibson, which was abandoned by the Army
in 1857 and renamed Keetoowah by the natives living there, only to be reoccupied when the Civil War began.
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anjou
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:42 pm

I always raze the villages

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Ace
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:53 pm

It is always beneficial for Union to raze them, and for the CSA to protect them since every year CSA gets up to 3 ind cav units (depending on the number of villages), and Indians are the best raiders you can get. But, playing as the Union I have never razed them, it would feel just plain wrong.

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DrPostman
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:27 pm

Ace wrote:It is always beneficial for Union to raze them, and for the CSA to protect them since every year CSA gets up to 3 ind cav units (depending on the number of villages), and Indians are the best raiders you can get. But, playing as the Union I have never razed them, it would feel just plain wrong.


I swear there is always something new I learn about this game. I didn't know that about CSA Indian units.
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Ol' Choctaw
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:19 pm

I would not dream of razing the villages, even though they are rather out of place on the map.

The Arkansas River was navigable up to Kansas but the last landing was just about where Tulsa is today. The first landing in that part was at Ft. Coffee, a depot set up to receive the first Choctaw when they arrived.

The Red River was navigable up to Prairie Dog Town Forks at the head of Palo Duro Canyon. Comanche country!

The Indian units of the IT were a lot more than what you see in game. There were Two Brigades and about the equivalent of a third, but they were mostly home guard Creek and Seminole units. The Choctaw & Chickasaw Bde, and the Cherokee Bde. The Cherokee Bde actually had Creek and Osage units as well as a couple of Cherokees.

They fought in the IT, Arkansas, and Missouri. Overall command was in the hands of Douglas H. Cooper. Tandy Walker commanded one bde and Stands Watie the other. When Watie was made Division commander, Cooper took over as IT Commander and Adair took the Cherokee Bde.

Gen. Monkey-Bear
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:56 pm

Wow, I didn't even know about those free CSA units. I wish I had known before I allowed my current opponent to raze all the villiages.

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marecone
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Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:58 pm

DrPostman wrote:I swear there is always something new I learn about this game. I didn't know that about CSA Indian units.


+1
Forrest said something about killing a Yankee for each of his horses that they shot. In the last days of the war, Forrest had killed 30 of the enemy and had 30 horses shot from under him. In a brief but savage conflict, a Yankee soldier "saw glory for himself" with an opportunity to kill the famous Confederate General... Forrest killed the fellow. Making 31 Yankees personally killed, and 30 horses lost...

He remarked, "I ended the war a horse ahead."

VigaBrand
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:55 am

Is it important who controls the village for the new indian units or is it only important that they exist?

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Ace
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:14 am

It is not important who controls them. As long as they exist, every year a new ind unit will spawn in each village (in 3 IT villages), taking mc of the village for the CSA in the process, that is if Union takes the villages but does not garrison them. I don't know what will happen if the Union actually garrisons the villages.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:48 am

I am pretty sure you only replace lost units. You never wind up with more than the three IT units, though the Sioux and Pima can come on board when the time comes.

The same is true for the villages in Kansas and Nebraska Territory. Once they deploy they can be replaced once per year if you hold the villages. I never destroy any of them, so if the other side loses a unit it is also replaced.

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Ace
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:47 pm

I am pretty sure I once had 9 IT units.

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:57 pm

Ace wrote:I am pretty sure I once had 9 IT units.


There is something of a bug that will recreate the original 3 Indian units. I'm not sure what the exact trigger is, but it happens when one or any of the 3 take a bunch of damage. I've had all 3 nearly destroyed and then got the "replacement for Indian regiments" or some such message in the ledger. Poof, 3 duplicate Indian regiments. It's been awile since I've seen it though so it might've been fixed.

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DrPostman
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:35 pm

Most I've ever seen was 7. I'm playing a 1.17a game now and if I get more than that I'll report back.
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Ace
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Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:11 pm

Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne wrote:There is something of a bug that will recreate the original 3 Indian units. I'm not sure what the exact trigger is, but it happens when one or any of the 3 take a bunch of damage. I've had all 3 nearly destroyed and then got the "replacement for Indian regiments" or some such message in the ledger. Poof, 3 duplicate Indian regiments. It's been awile since I've seen it though so it might've been fixed.


I have looked into it, and it seems a bug. When I look into event file, it seems the designers wanted to spawn new units if the old ones were destroyed.
Conditions to spawn are:

EvalUnqUnit = Cherokee Mounted Rifle Rgt.;NOT
EvalUnqUnit = Drew's Cherokee Mounted Rifle Rgt.;NOT
EvalUnqUnit = 1st Cherokee Cavalry Battalion;NOT

These are original regiment names of 3 units which appear with gen Watie.

When you form a division with them (I used to do it to mix them with regular cavalry), and divide a division afterwards, somehow regiment names change to:

Cherokee Rifle
Drew's Cherokee
1st Cherokee

So the game thinks, original regiments are destroyed and spawns the new ones.

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Ace
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Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:44 am

If anyone is interested, here is Unofficial quick fix for Indian Spawn bug. Just extract it into Events folder.[ATTACH]22344[/ATTACH]
Attachments
IndSpawnQuickFix.rar
(8.26 KiB) Downloaded 79 times

Irish_Brigade
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Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:13 pm

Thanks to this thread I am doing a scorched earth tactic in the west in a PBEM game I'm playing. I destroyed the depot that the union has in the Indian teritory area(cant recall its name) and have a single cav unit going from indian city razing them to the ground. Will secure my west boarder from the CSA by making supplies limited :innocent:

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DrPostman
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Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:49 pm

Irish_Brigade wrote:Thanks to this thread I am doing a scorched earth tactic in the west in a PBEM game I'm playing. I destroyed the depot that the union has in the Indian teritory area(cant recall its name) and have a single cav unit going from indian city razing them to the ground. Will secure my west boarder from the CSA by making supplies limited :innocent:

That may help. Then again, the North can build depots much easier than the South.
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