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Chuske
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Sieges

Fri May 04, 2012 1:14 pm

Ok a search of the forum suggested there is no thread on siege mechanics, mostly just discussions on whether to siege or assault. Thinking that understanding seiges might be useful to others I'm creating a new thread rather than continuing in my general thread of my newbie questions.

Let's start with the manual:-

GameManual wrote:Sieges happen when a unit defends in a pre-war Fort, a permanent fortification, a city, a Depot or an Indian village. Two values -
one for each side - are randomly generated to resolve the siege. Various bonuses are also added and these are indicated below:

Besieging side:
•Artillery combat factors
•Leader with the “Siege Engineer” Special Ability
•Breach achieved (see below)
•Defender lacks General Supply

Besieged side:
•Artillery combat factors
•Leader with the “Engineer” or “Fort Defender” Special Ability
•Fort Level: Pre-war Forts are considered Level 1 Forts while Level 5+ trenches are Level 2 Forts

The difference between these two values, called the Siege Roll Value (SRV), indicates the result (cumulative):
•SRV > defending units’ average discipline: Defender surrenders and all units are eliminated unless the defending Force includes a Supply Wagon, in which case the result is ignored
•SRV >= 3: A breach is made. The siege icon will change to indicate a breach is in progress or achieved. Cities and pre-war Forts are breached after a single breach result while permanent Fortifications require two breach results to be fully breached.
•SRV > 0: 5 hits are inflicted on the defenders for each point of SRV
•SRV < 0: The defender has managed to repair a breach



From Dixiecrats excellent artillery analysis 2:-

Code: Select all

Table 1 Minimum Required Artillery Power                                 
      Terrain/Weather/Command  Penalty                           
      0%   5%   10%   15%   20%   25%   30%   35%   40%   45%
Siege Bonus   
        1   30   32   34   36   38   40   43   47   50   55
   2   60   64   67   71   75   80   86   93   100   110
   3   90   95   100   106   113   120   129   139   150   164
   4   120   127   134   142   150   160   172   185   200   219
   5   150   158   167   177   188   200   215   231   250   273
   6   180   190   200   212   225   240   258   277   300   328
   7   210   222   234   248   263   280   300   324   350   382
   8   240   253   267   283   300   320   343   370   400   437
   9   270   285   300   318   338   360   386   416   450   491


Code: Select all

Power   US   CS
6lb   20   14
12lb   29   19
10lb   29   19
20lb   33   22
HA   31   16
Rod   37   -
Siege   42   42
Columb   -   31


So your artillery siege bonus (round down any decimal fraction) = (artillery power points) * (1- command penalty) / 30

Finally we have the AGEWiki http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Sieges_and_breaches, which I don't fully understand and seems to be mainly in terms of ROP which may or may not apply to AACW, I couldn't find if these options were in the AACW files.

If this is correct then it suggests that the dice rolls of each side may be a 15 side dice suggesting SRV = att dice (15) - def dice (15) + att bonus - def bonus

Thread here suggests bonuses don't stack http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?8500-Siege-Artillery&p=76255&viewfull=1#post76255, ie 2 siege guns will only get 1 siege ability bonus.

Leaves some unanswered questions:-

  1. Do the ROP mechanics on the AGEWiki Siege page apply to AACW or are they different?
  2. What is the fort bonuses to defender on SRV (ie for level 1 and 2)?
  3. Do coastal artillery guns power count for the defenders artillery bonus? If so that is why sieges of coastal forts can be drawn out, hard to breach if the coastal guns reduce the SRV.
  4. Where can I find the weather and terrain command penalties?
  5. Siege ability bonuses for guns appear not to stack, but I assume you can get a bonus for a leader ability and for siege gun ability?
  6. Is it only artillery power and SRV bonuses that effects the chance of a breach?


Finally whenever I have an unsuccessful assault on a fort my forces seem to retreat from the siege region, lifting the siege, is there any way to prevent this? i.e. So my forces go back to sieging the fort/city after a defeated assault?
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FENRIS
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Fri May 04, 2012 3:45 pm

Hello !

if you don't want your forces retreat from the siege region, you have to make two forces : one for the assault, and the other who stay in the region besieging normally. But it's not sure ! in a few case, i have seen all the forces leaving the region (i think it depends on the damage you take in the assault)
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Sat May 05, 2012 2:21 am

Excellent post idea, Chuske. I hope you weed out every bit of info on this!
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Chuske
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Sat May 05, 2012 11:11 pm

Ok got v.slightly further in that the same values as in http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Sieges_and_breaches are in the AACW GameLogic.opt file.

Puzzler is there it says 10 artillery combat points to get a seige bonus. Question is (hopes lodilefty or other modder sees this and can confirm) is artillery comabt power 10 per bonus point as per file or 30 as per Dixiecrat's artillery analysis?
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Wed May 09, 2012 11:16 pm

Chuske wrote:Ok got v.slightly further in that the same values as in http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Sieges_and_breaches are in the AACW GameLogic.opt file.

Puzzler is there it says 10 artillery combat points to get a seige bonus. Question is (hopes lodilefty or other modder sees this and can confirm) is artillery comabt power 10 per bonus point as per file or 30 as per Dixiecrat's artillery analysis?


Given the age of Dixicrat's analysis [as in: done before these params were added?], I'd lean toward what's current in the opt file :)
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Chuske
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Mon May 14, 2012 12:51 pm

lodilefty wrote:Given the age of Dixicrat's analysis [as in: done before these params were added?], I'd lean toward what's current in the opt file :)


Thanks for the tip.

I'm going to try some experiments when time allows. The plan is to start a game controlling both sides and as Union just build siege trains for the 3 coastal forts off NC (Ft Clark etc) and strip the coastal guns from 1, the coast guns and artillery from another and leave the remaining fort as standard. I can then see if time to breach is affected by the coast guns as I suspect. If so that would explain why assault is better and why breaching takes ages.
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Tue May 15, 2012 2:46 am

You should also consider the supply situation of the besieged troops. In the tournament, I've seen 'em surrender sometimes much quicker than I would have guessed ... even if they still have supplies. I guess the idea is that they can't get more, or perhaps its the overwhelming odds facing them sometimes. Anyway, they just give up and cost their owner a NM and some VPs.
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Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:27 pm

Quick siege related question. I have made multiple breaches in multiple cities, in multiple games. I have tried the All out assault option a lot of times but NEVER have I seen a attack animation pop up during the turn, or a log entry regarding casualties. I have captured cities but I only recall them surrendering in the log screen.

Should I see an assault animation like any of the other battles that happen during my turn?


I went to here: http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Sieges_and_breaches
And looked at the wiki and it showed for the GamesRules.opt file these two lines:

// Assault not allowed without Breach
rulBreachForAssault = 1


These lines are not found in my GamesRules.opt file. I looked at the GameLogic.opt file as well, not there. Is this (rulBreachForAssault) line supposed to be there? The date of wiki article is April 2010, so it may be superseded buy a newer patch.

Either way I have never seen a city assaulted that was under siege with breaches. The red icon showing breaches and that it offers no protection is present before I have tried these assault’s.

Thanks!

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Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:05 am

The smaller the force is that your are besieging, the more likely that they will surrender when their location is breached or possibly even before that, depending on their supply level.

If you actually assault a location -- not just set to assault and have them coincidentally surrender at the same time -- you will get a normal battle display, the same as if you hadn't besieged the defender in the turn(s) before.

You can always assault a location before breaching it, but the defenders will be more difficult. Just set your attacking force to Assault Posture[red] and watch them go. You can also assault a location in a region into which you are moving in that turn, but you also have to set your RoE to All-Out-Attack and IIRC since patch level 16a you also have to stop in that region. If you pass through it you will not assault.

I believe that if the rulBreachForAssault is not in the GameRules.opt file that it would be an optional modification that you could implement and probably a rule used explicitly in other games using the same engine.

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Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:36 am

So I should get a normal battle animation/display like any other battle out there. But I am not. Time to figure out why.


Edit: Turns out it was user error. I wish the resolution was higher as I hate having to put on my glasses.


Thanks!

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