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Capt Cliff
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Confederate AI??

Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:32 pm

What's the fascination the AI has with attacking north from Morgan Va? In the 3 games I have started so far the CSA AI has attacked north from Morgan or Pendleton in June/July/August 61. That terrain seems a bit wild and harsh for offensive operations, or is it? Joe Johnston did it the last time into Fulton, so an attack across a river into mountains?? One game Magruder attacked north and I eventually cornered him at Allegheny PA.

Has anybody else found the AI a bit Wonky??

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GraniteStater
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Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:25 pm

A common occurrence. Give the AI Medium Detection and possibly Low Aggression and these should tone it down.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster

[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898

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(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.


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Longshanks
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Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:34 pm

Yup, GS. Also, you can put about three brigades in the cities that are worth points, such as Pittsburgh, and they'll likely leave them alone. The AI detects poorly garrisoned cities that are Strategic Objectives and will go after them. You garrison them just a bit, the AI says "meh" and moves on.

BTW, it's easy for the human player to exploit the AI's weakness to attack such places by letting them get there, and then pinning them until they starve to death. Try it once for fun, but after that, you may prefer to "work with the AI" to get a more realistic experience.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:47 pm

I usually just put a few troops between Grafton and Harpers Ferry so that they need to fight to get through.

Since I have been doing that I have had no raids break through.

Usually they see it and turn back.

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Capt Cliff
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:44 pm

This is funny!! Actually really sad. I turned the AI down to minimum, not totally it has +1 bonus for activation. If I turn it off it just sits there and does nothing, right?

It's October 1861 ... that's 61 in the WINTER ... I have Beauregard wandering around in Pennsylvania just kicking everyone's a$$. I am not sure it the follow enemy leader function is working or I am not doing it right. The dashed lines at the base of his counter are ALL green. He had just came from Harper Ferry but I had stuffed it with troops so he moved north after failing to take it. Funny he is totally cut off from the CSA, but he is hauling a wagon around. BLEH!!

Next I got Huger blasting past Grafton heading for Pittsburgh, I think. Both Huger and Beauregard have huge army's at least 15 units each. Out west it's the same with Albert Sidney running around like Heinz Gundarian. So basically you can't play this game against the AI, right? It can only be played against a human, correct? Or live with the Wacko Jacko things that happen.

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Gray_Lensman
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:57 pm

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jstu9
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:42 pm

I had the same issues with the game I just finished. I won the game as the North in Dec 1864 but CSA were holding Chicago and Milwaukee at the end of the game.

During the game, they took St. Louis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Allegheny, pretty much every city on the Ohio River and Mississippi River. Of course I just took them back but many of those cities I lost more than once.

So next game I will have to play with the settings more but more importantly defend my cities more!

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Longshanks
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:43 pm

Yet another cure for wild AI moves is to take over the other side for one turn and return the offending stacks to your version of reality - i.e., move them where you think they ought to be. Best to do this the turn the "silly move" occurs rather than waiting until Bory is besieging NYC.

BTW, the AI (and human players for that matter) will extend their life behind the lines by taking your underdefended depots. There, they resupply so they can strike you again. So, defend (or destroy) those depots!

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Capt Cliff
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Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:30 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Start the game over again when you apply changes such as those suggested by GraniteStater, otherwise even the lower detection/aggressive settings will see everything around the "advanced" units allowing them to continue their activities.
.


I did restart the game. :bonk:

I'll try it again ... the game I think will work great against an human opponent. But with the CSA capturing Chicago ... I think I'd go ballistic and destroy my PC!! LOL! :mdr:

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:51 am

The Union AI is better than the CSA AI as well. I've never been able to get past 1862 without getting bored or winning when I play as the Union.

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Capt Cliff
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:44 am

Ok, I restarted with all the AI settings toned down and I still get these raids by Joe Johnston and E.K Smith or Huger or who ever. :blink:

But what is really trouble some is that it's so early in the game. I have not reach 1862 in any game except one. Where is the CSA getting all these troops?? I believe historically they had the manpower but not the weapons to arm them. I remember playing the old SPI monster game on Antietam, the Terrible Swift Sword system, where some the CSA unit's had smooth bore muskets and some of the CSA cavalry carried shotguns.

Anyway I assume against a human this sort of reckless abandon is few and far between. I hope.

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Gray_Lensman
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:20 am

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:48 am

Not sure I was around then Gray, but I'd like to see a variant with that rule in any future AACW game. We used a rule like that in my last PBEM and it helped keep the armies under control a bit better.

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Longshanks
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:12 pm

GL and Pat nailed it. If you want to limit the AI to Volunteers for a while, your only option is to play both sides, or play a human - that is, take the AI out of it. The AI will hit mobilization asap every time.

Many (most?) PBEMers play with restricted (i.e., no) mobilization for 1861 at least.

As I understand it, the game can't be modded to restrict mobilization. If it can, I sure would like to see it.

knowmad62
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:30 pm

Take a look at Clovis' Struggle for a Vast Future mod and
see if that is what you are looking for.

wsatterwhite
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:06 pm

From everything that I've seen (I've been working on putting together a simple mod that allows players to build more historical oob's through their troop purchases), despite the unhistorical nature of the early drafts, the actual manpower totals produced by them are necessary to raise a historical number of troops. I've come to think of the draft as less of an actual draft and more of a super call for volunteers.

When you look at the number of troops/units in the various armies by early 1862, it's almost impossible to reach those troop levels without doing at least one draft (remember, by March 1862 the Union should have one huge army to campaign against Richmond, the equivalent of another army in northern Virginia and the Shenandoah, two armies in Tennessee, the equivalent of an army corps to be assembled along the south Atlantic coastal areas and another guarding Fort Monroe with however many troops getting ready to invade New Orleans- unless you buy the absolute cheapest units possible, you can't put all that together with just the Volunteer calls). The thing that really skews everything is that the AI will do their first draft as early as possible thus producing unhistorical troop levels just in the very earliest months of the war- by the end of the 1861 everything is on track.

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Capt Cliff
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:13 pm

Longshanks wrote:GL and Pat nailed it. If you want to limit the AI to Volunteers for a while, your only option is to play both sides, or play a human - that is, take the AI out of it. The AI will hit mobilization asap every time.

Many (most?) PBEMers play with restricted (i.e., no) mobilization for 1861 at least.

As I understand it, the game can't be modded to restrict mobilization. If it can, I sure would like to see it.


Adding a switch in the AI option menu could be done, if ACW is going to be patched again. You can push full mobilization off till 62 or historically, which I think was 63 for the CSA. Did the Union ever full mobilize? Now the CSA should have a better replacement system, which they did. While the Union simple ground down units then folded them into another regiment.

I just noticed as the Union the AI also goes for full mobilization.

I just check the CSA turn for my most recent game and I see the CSA now has 2 ironclads in Norfolk!!?? With the limited Naval stores resources of the CSA how was this rationalized? So there's no limit to the number they can build??

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Gray_Lensman
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wsatterwhite
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Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:54 pm

Capt Cliff wrote:I just check the CSA turn for my most recent game and I see the CSA now has 2 ironclads in Norfolk!!?? With the limited Naval stores resources of the CSA how was this rationalized? So there's no limit to the number they can build??


The AI is only limited by the resources they have, same as a human player. If the Confederate AI builds an ironclad in Norfolk, that's just taking away from their resources to build other troops and/or ships elsewhere, nothing really "wrong" there.

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Capt Cliff
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:58 am

wsatterwhite wrote:The AI is only limited by the resources they have, same as a human player. If the Confederate AI builds an ironclad in Norfolk, that's just taking away from their resources to build other troops and/or ships elsewhere, nothing really "wrong" there.



I assume the AI get 150% of everything as a hedge against a human player. They get combat bonus, other that what's shown on the AI screen in the options menu, as well. The adage that "God is on the side of the big battalions" works for these PC AI's. Just saying that too many ironclads in the hands of the AI can be unbalancing.

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Gray_Lensman
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Longshanks
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:06 am

The AI gets whatever bonuses you give it in the Options. Many players think the AI is way too easy to beat, and I'm betting you will too once you learn all the fundamentals. Playing the AI is a great way to get the basics down tho. You'll really start learning the game when you play a human player.

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Capt Cliff
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:42 am

Longshanks wrote:The AI gets whatever bonuses you give it in the Options. Many players think the AI is way too easy to beat, and I'm betting you will too once you learn all the fundamentals. Playing the AI is a great way to get the basics down tho. You'll really start learning the game when you play a human player.



:thumbsup: ;) :w00t:

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GraniteStater
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:21 am

Athena is one of the best AIs I"ve encountered. Once 1.16 was out, I loaded up on Colonel (as the Union)...

and lost. She took DC "when I wasn't looking."

She can be clever and even after all this time, still has a few tricks left. Give her Medium Detect, Colonel or Lieutenant, Historical Attrition for Player Only, coupla others...not bad, really not bad at all. She has her obsessions, like HF and Fort M and Fort P, and if you start a 61 or 62 game as the Union, Richmond will be yours in two years (or less), but overall, I don't mind playing Athena.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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wsatterwhite
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:43 am

Capt Cliff wrote:I assume the AI get 150% of everything as a hedge against a human player. They get combat bonus, other that what's shown on the AI screen in the options menu, as well. The adage that "God is on the side of the big battalions" works for these PC AI's. Just saying that too many ironclads in the hands of the AI can be unbalancing.


The AI can get extra replacements if you bump up the AI settings in the options but if I'm not mistaken, they don't receive any bonuses as to extra conscripts and resources- the AI gets dealt the exact same hand as a human player playing the same side. If you're playing as the Union, the best thing to do is follow history's example and push strongly along the entire front- you'll find that if the AI appears too strong in one particular area, it's because they are slipping up somewhere else (assuming you maintain a parity in manpower, that is- if the AI is maxing out it's drafts and volunteer calls and you are just doing the bare minimum, then yeah, you'll have problems :) )

charlesonmission
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:15 am

Struggle for a Vast Future is being finalised by Clovis in the next month. The current version isn't stable (at least it wasn't for me). However, it was/is a great mod!

knowmad62 wrote:Take a look at Clovis' Struggle for a Vast Future mod and
see if that is what you are looking for.

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caranorn
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:39 am

One of the reasons for the ai's deep raids seems to be that we human players concentrate troops to a point where the ai considers frontal attack suicide, so it looks for ways around the large stacks and attack undefended strategic cities...

The worst case I've seen so far was a Confederate army moving down the Yorktown Peninsula, boarding ship outside Union controlled Fort Monroe, landing in southern Delaware and moving up that Peninsula with when I looked at the ai side orders to attack New York City (at that point I reverted the game several turns)...

As to total forces, indeed it's impossible to raise historic levels of forces without drafting in 1861. Of course large portions of those early forces served dispersed on garrison duties (which actually makes sense with the current deep raids). Also there were the de-mobilisations of the 3-month, 6-month and 1-year regiments (almost all regiments raised in 1861 and some in later years fell under those categories) which are not included in the game. The historic situation as we know it now (I know Gray took an intensive look at the OR as did I) is quite different from the one apparently known to the original design team. It would probably be a nightmare to try and fix these issues now. So I wouldn't expect anything in that area before a hypotetical AACW-II (for which I would of course volunteer)...
Marc aka Caran...

vaalen
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Confederate AI?

Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:36 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:They're getting all the troops because the AI utilizes the same rules and options as the players are presented with. Those include totally non-historic manpower drafts (over and above the volunteer drafts) at the start of the war. I wanted to move these draft choices to latter year historical dates but had too much player/gamer opposition. I even considered adjusting the draft dates JUST for the w/KY scenarios which were my own scenario adaptations from the originals but still incurred too much opposition. Nothing to be done about it now except to know that it occurs and adjust your play accordingly.
.


I wish you had moved these draft choices to latter year historical dates. I totally fail to understand the opposition.
The huge early confederate armies and the constant deep invasions by the Confederate AI are why I do not play the game anymore.

The real war just was not like that, and could not have been like that, given the political and military realities of the time.

This is truly a shame, because there is so much to enjoy and admire in what otherwise is a masterpiece. Many people who love the civil war period have stayed away from the game because of this. Remove these two flaws,
and you greatly increase the appeal of the game.

It is very sad that nothing can be done at this point.

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Ol' Choctaw
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Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:09 pm

vaalen wrote:I wish you had moved these draft choices to latter year historical dates. I totally fail to understand the opposition.
The huge early confederate armies and the constant deep invasions by the Confederate AI are why I do not play the game anymore.

The real war just was not like that, and could not have been like that, given the political and military realities of the time.

This is truly a shame, because there is so much to enjoy and admire in what otherwise is a masterpiece. Many people who love the civil war period have stayed away from the game because of this. Remove these two flaws,
and you greatly increase the appeal of the game.

It is very sad that nothing can be done at this point.



Early on I had some difficulty with CSA raids too but I developed a few counter measures that seemed to have worked and they just don’t go there any more.

I doubt that adjusting manpower would make a difference to the AI as to whether or not it raids deep or not. Making changes to the AI often results in other problems so you end up chasing one thing after another.

I play with my own house rules and wait for drafts until later and can still whip the AI, union or csa.

All games have flaws. So far as I can see there is nothing else better so I guess I will stick with this until something better dose come along.

vaalen
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Confederate AI

Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:44 pm

Ol' Choctaw wrote:Early on I had some difficulty with CSA raids too but I developed a few counter measures that seemed to have worked and they just don’t go there any more.

I doubt that adjusting manpower would make a difference to the AI as to whether or not it raids deep or not. Making changes to the AI often results in other problems so you end up chasing one thing after another.

I play with my own house rules and wait for drafts until later and can still whip the AI, union or csa.

All games have flaws. So far as I can see there is nothing else better so I guess I will stick with this until something better dose come along.


What counter measures did you develop?

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