I just don't understand supply.

[hgilmer]

I have a lot of supply in one city and the next zone over my units are starving. What is going wrong?

[GraniteStater]

I will try to help.

First, read the Supply Primer so handily stickied.

Now, in a nutshell (I know the Union; the Southern mileage may vary):

Let's take a certain unit you get in southern PA in a 61 start. At first it is locked. It stays locked for about two turns. Then it unlocks. Then you click it to move it and discover that your brand new brave boys, rarin' to go, are starving to death. In Pennsylvania. In the summer.

This is because (a) no Wagon; (b) not next to, or on, a town or city, a Depot. The system knows the unit is there; the system wants to give them supplies, ammo, and so forth, but it can't, because of (a) and (b) just mentioned.

Depots, Forts, Towns of size 3+, Wagons and Transports request Supply. Towns of less than size 3 generate small amounts of Supply, but never request it. The system is a network of pipelines: NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc., generate huge amounts that are pushed along the system of RRs and Roads and Rivers not interdicted by Bad Guys (i. e., MC of 25% or more, not subject to enemy Forts blocking riverine traffic, etc.). The Supply goes to them who ask for it - them's that asks, git.

So you need to be adjacent to, or on, a source of supply, or something that requests supply. If that something is not a fixed Fort, Depot, or 3+ Town/City, it had better be a Wagon or a Transport, cuz otherwise, the waiter ain't takin' your order.

Also, it is important to keep RRs and Rivers up to 100%, Full Capacity, cuz Supply is pushed in three phases and only goes the last mile (like your cable connection at home) if the third and final phase is up to snuff. You can get by with Average, but some guys might not get that extra helping of beans at dinner, cuz the third phase never got to them that turn.

I finally drew the conclusion that if I want to go Reb hunting, I had better darn well make sure I took a Wagon with me. Fire up a 62 start as the USA and check out Burnside, sunning himself on the shore in SC. Go thru two Turns, maybe three. Then check out Burnside - he is about to go poof!, because you didn't build a Depot - Beaufort, SC, is not a 3+ Town, there is no Fort, no Depot. You can park Transports there, that do request Supply, but they will not do the trick, they're too small a capacity, it doesn't work, I know, believe me, I know. The solution to the 'overseas' Burnside problem is to build a Depot there with a Transport unit(s). Then everyone's much happier and has something to eat and something to shoot, cuz the system says, "Hey! I gotta keep that Depot in Supply!" The Shipping Box plays an essential role in this case, BTW.

It's a rough sketch and I'm sure Gray and others could iron out some details, but that's I how I think of it - seems to work.

Goin' huntin'? Take a Wagon. Goin' down Ole Man River to squash Vicksburg? Take Wagons and Transports. Goin' over the seas to land in Mobile and surprise Johnny Reb big time? Wagons and Transports.

Pushin' towards the interior from Nashville? Seize every town and Depot you see, secure your RRs, assert MC and keep the lines open, cuz you gotta keep your Wagons stocked.

Hope that helps. Have a good war and have a good breakfast.

[Mortar]

Could be caused by a few different things... Does this city have a depot? If not, than it might have trouble distributing those supplies to your force for some reason. Is the starving force in a region that has a road or rail connecting it to the city? and has that rail been cut? Is the region at least 25% military controlled? If not, it cannot receive supplies if I am correct.
Is it winter time? Or is there snow, mud, harsh weather or is it in a difficult terrain? All those things will affect how much supply can be transferred. Also do you have a sufficient number of rail and river transport points to ensure that the supply is moved throughout your system of depots and cities. A sufficient number of depots, placed every 3-5 spaces give or take, so that each can distribute supplies without a big burden on any one area? Supply wagons (in your large forces at least) so that they can draw supply from the surrounding areas. Lightly industrializing areas which produce a low amount may also help to increase the available supplies in barren areas without costing too much, also. Just remember to turn it off when the area begins producing well enough.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I hope it wraps up the main points to "supply and demand".

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Mortar]

Ha, didn't know someone was already helping.

[GraniteStater]

GraniteStater:

Excellent.

Thank you, GL - truly appreciate it.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[GraniteStater]

Your reply was pretty good too.

I was just impressed with GraniteStater's flavored way of responding.

Well, again, thanks! A writer always likes it when the reader likes his style.

[deguerra]

thanks for this.

I feel I know the system reasonably well but it does always help to have it explained again. and again. and again. I was also wondering about that exact unit in PA. Just moved it to Harper's Ferry, which has a depot. It had bloody better be in supply now

[hgilmer]

The sad part is is that it's in a city, it has a depot. All my transportation is at 3/3, but now I have to micromanage every river way as well? As far as I know, there is absolutely no rebel boat in that river and there is a railway line between the two cities/towns (Bowling green and the town SW to it).

There is a river between it but it is connected by rail.

And I've read the sticky.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[hgilmer]

Could be caused by a few different things... Does this city have a depot? If not, than it might have trouble distributing those supplies to your force for some reason. Is the starving force in a region that has a road or rail connecting it to the city? and has that rail been cut? Is the region at least 25% military controlled? If not, it cannot receive supplies if I am correct.
Is it winter time? Or is there snow, mud, harsh weather or is it in a difficult terrain? All those things will affect how much supply can be transferred. Also do you have a sufficient number of rail and river transport points to ensure that the supply is moved throughout your system of depots and cities. A sufficient number of depots, placed every 3-5 spaces give or take, so that each can distribute supplies without a big burden on any one area? Supply wagons (in your large forces at least) so that they can draw supply from the surrounding areas. Lightly industrializing areas which produce a low amount may also help to increase the available supplies in barren areas without costing too much, also. Just remember to turn it off when the area begins producing well enough.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I hope it wraps up the main points to "supply and demand".

Your reply is very helpful. But, it also says to me that, in my opinion, supply needs to be reworked to be a little more intuitive.

Army can't get supply and is starving? Put it on the tool-tip WHY it is not getting supply. Also, I think there should be a tool tip on WHY you can't build a depot instead of just saying it could be this, this, this, or this.

[Cromagnonman]

Sounds odd. It seemed to me that, regardless of weather/terrain, supplies could always travel 1 region per turn. Further, that a unit could always draw supplies from 1 region away. If you truly are adjacent to a well-supplied region, then something's wrong.
If it's winter, you can lose supply to hits from the weather.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[GraniteStater]

The sad part is is that it's in a city, it has a depot. All my transportation is at 3/3, but now I have to micromanage every river way as well? As far as I know, there is absolutely no rebel boat in that river and there is a railway line between the two cities/towns (Bowling green and the town SW to it).

There is a river between it but it is connected by rail.

And I've read the sticky.

I can see the map without launching...Clarksville, TN: there's only one line feeding into it and BG (from the North - you are USA, right?) and that's from Louisville/Lexington -> Cincy/Indiana -> rest of North.

* Any RR damage?

* At least 25% MC in every Region with tracks?

* Did you just take it? MC in Clarksville? Depot 'up & runing'? No hard facts here - just an educated guess - I have no basis other than a hunch.

* I have no solid basis for saying this, but I'll bet the system routes with RR first. So check that thorughly, then ask yourself - absolutely sure there's no oppo River craft downstream on the Cumberland? FoW...

* How about strong oppo formations well dug in on the downstream banks? Didn't mention it before, but read the book & Primer - entrenched oppo of a certain level with guns interdict traffic.

* Lastly - "I'm outta Supply!" - what does one mean by this? Do you have 32% left? (mouseover on the unit's "status" symbols in the upper RH row of the unit's screen on the bottom of the main screen). 15%? 63%? Read the tooltips, seriously - always read the tooltips. You might be 'down', but are in no trouble and will be getting more next Turn.

If all that fails, give Gray the file.

[Cromagnonman]

Are you in the town just SW of Bowling Green, or in the open region across the river across from it and just S of Ft. Donelson?

[GraniteStater]

IMPORTANT ADDENDUM

I was a bit too breezy per the 'Burnside problem': although TP capacity might play a role, it is not the central point.

Wagons and Transports

W&TP do request Supply - from a Depot, Fort or 3+ Town (henceforth abbreviated to DFT+). The system does not replenish W&TP directly. So Burnside's problem has nothing to do with TP capacity - it has to do with no DFT+ being there - the system needs a "target" - DFT+ is the target.

W&TP load up at DFT+ (or, if enough Stuff is at a 1 or 2 size Town - possibly - I am inclined to think they do, but the quantity of Stuff at these small burgs is most definitely limited - so don't expect to supply your Corps from the kind efforts of the citizens of Podunkville, GA). They then accompany your fighting men along the way as they press forward into hinterlands. Their Supply gets drained every Turn (Ammo in Battles only). At some point, they need to be replenished - at a DFT+ (or possibly Podunkville).

As the USA, this means you either send them back to be replenished, or seize DFT+ points from the Rebs and connect these DFT+ points up to The System - making sure that the boys in butternut can't mess with your bacon, literally.

Get it? Burnside is outta suntan lotion in sunny Beaufort cuz there is no DFT+ there and parking TPs is no good, cuz TPs are not a target for The System. Same goes for rivers - fire up a 63 USA start - after a while, Grant & Co are hurtin' cowboys, cuz there ain't no DFT+ around and all the TPs that Foote can park in a Harbor does them no good, cuz there ain't no target for the System to dump Stuff into - solution? Build a Depot.

Hope this is useful.

[GraniteStater]

And FWIW: when you get to be as paranoid about Supply as I usually am (I'm a bit more relaxed now, but still always antsy about the chow line), then you'll be on the right track.

[Mickey3D]

The system does not replenish W&TP directly.

Are you sure ? I remember a game where a corps with a wagon stay, in winter, several turns in front of Bowling Green (occupied by the ennemy) without suffering from lack of supply.

It would be great to have the game files.

[GraniteStater]

I can't quote chapter and verse, but my assertion about W&TP not being targets is based on reading(s) here (including Supply Primer), other Supply threads, cogitating about the exact meaning of certain passages in the Manual, the Wiki, and hands-on experience with the program.

Put it this way - if W&TP do get Supply directly if they are not adjacent to a DFT+, I would bet it ain't much - but I really don't think they do. I'm completely on 1.16rc4a now, I just overwrote 1.15, it's cyberhistory on this machine. I was working a Colonel 63 start and I didn't get Supply fully ironed out for Grant's Army & Corps until I had (a) built a Depot on the landing place in MS, and (b) seized Vicksburg. Basically, parking TPs in the Harbor alongside the Mississippi don't cut the mustard - you need a DFT+, from what I see and experience.

[Mickey3D]

I'm using version 1.15 but I don't think there is much change with 1.16rc4 as supply management is certainly "hardwired" in the code.

I agree with you wagon replenishment is not clear but here is an excerpt of the wiki :

[INDENT]"The game engine attempts to guess intelligently where supplies are needed, and is constrained by the demand, or "magnet factor," of the destinations. A depot is a big magnet. A wagon is a magnet. A valid destination in a region with lots of troops is a medium-sized magnet. A small town without troops is a small magnet."[/INDENT]

[Mickey3D]

I was working a Colonel 63 start and I didn't get Supply fully ironed out for Grant's Army & Corps until I had (a) built a Depot on the landing place in MS, and (b) seized Vicksburg. Basically, parking TPs in the Harbor alongside the Mississippi don't cut the mustard - you need a DFT+, from what I see and experience.

As long as Vicksburg is in enemy hands and there is an entrenched battery in the place (that's the case by default) supply will not go farther than the city by using the Mississippi.

--------------------------
edited as per Granitestate comment below

[GraniteStater]

As long as Vicksburg is in enemy hands and there is an entrenched battery in the place (that's the case by default) supply will go farther than the city by using the Mississippi.

You meant to type "no farther", I believe, and will read it that way - if so, agreed. But even after I had taken the place, I had some problems. I'd have to launch to check it out, but Vicksburg may be < size 3. *Launches *

Vicksburg is level 2, according to my UI. In the current Turn in my Colonel 63, there is a Depot there and the Region immediately south, also. I know for a fact I built the latter; whether I built the former I cannot recall.

And I would bet that it takes at least one Turn for the System to recognize the target Depot and push Stuff its way. Furthermore, I would bet that it takes some indeterminate amount of time (Turns) for the newly acquired or established target to be fully 'up & running'.

A lot of this is supposition on my part, to be fair - but I don't think I'm far off.

[GraniteStater]

I'm using version 1.15 but I don't think there is much change with 1.16rc4 as supply management is certainly "hardwired" in the code.

I agree with you wagon replenishment is not clear but here is an excerpt of the wiki :

[INDENT]"The game engine attempts to guess intelligently where supplies are needed, and is constrained by the demand, or "magnet factor," of the destinations. A depot is a big magnet. A wagon is a magnet. A valid destination in a region with lots of troops is a medium-sized magnet. A small town without troops is a small magnet."[/INDENT]

There is other language in other source material that almost explicitly states that W&TP draw from fixed sources - otherwise, why would one need to send them back to sources to 'gas up'? Yes, they are a magnet - if they are adjacent to, or on, a DFT+, or a small town that can handle the demand.

That's my thinking.

[Mickey3D]

"The supply distribution, where supply points move up to 15 regions per turn, is a distribution and repartition toward structures and supply wagon, BUT NOT military units. Military units are 'terminal', i.e they will consume supplies in wagons and structures, once the distribution is done. They ARE NOT able to call for supply distantly, and supplies points WON'T move up to 15 regions toward them, directly. Supplies points will only move in such way toward structures or supplies wagons (or transports ships). " (see here)

otherwise, why would one need to send them back to sources to 'gas up'? Yes, they are a magnet - if they are adjacent
to, or on, a DFT+, or a small town that can handle the demand.

This point puzzled me for some times too but a possible explanation could be linked to the following paragraph :

"Limitations on Supply Distribution
There is no specific limit on the amount of supply a structure can deliver in a single turn. Nor there is a limit on the amount of supply that can transit through a given structure. Even a low level structure could, theoretically, see the transit of a vast amount of supplies, except that it won't happen in practice. As there is a series of pushes, one step at a time, supplies will only be sent to a structure in an amount proportionate to its need (mostly factored by the structure level, with a big bonus for depot). As the amount is proportionate, a low level structure will in effect acts as a bottleneck between a huge source and a huge need. To circumvent that, you'll need to build a depot in the said region. "

That's my thinking.

Obviously we need someone who take part in the design of the game to sort it out.

[GraniteStater]

Agreed - I think I have a decent grasp, but am still puzzled about some fine points.

Gotta post in the AAR - later, frosty one.

[hgilmer]

Are you in the town just SW of Bowling Green, or in the open region across the river across from it and just S of Ft. Donelson?

Actually it IS Bowling Green and there is a depot in the region to the NE in Barren Ky and it has a lot of supply.

I have between 11% and 23% of my supply and there is some ammo ( stack) in Bowling Green.

I usually do have supply wagons with the armies but this one does not. I took Gallatin, actually and that was ungarrisoned and I was out of supply there so I moved back to BG and it doesn't have supply. It won't let me build a depot in BG, I guess because I don't have supply wagons. This is really the first time I had issues with supply (that I did not see coming) and it caught me off guard so forgive my intemperate first post, if that was how it was taken.

Barren is 57% Union controlled and has a lot of supply. BG is 77% Union and has no supply. The river doesn't tell me if I have any control on the tooltip.

And no rail damage.

[Cromagnonman]

Ah. Are your units in BG losing supply every turn, or steady at 11-23%? If the latter, then they are supplied, it's just tenuous. I have a division under Sumner and Lyons that has been beseiging Ft Smith for most of the winter. They've been at ~50% supply and I was frantically rushing a second wagon to them, until I realized that they're in a steady state. They are probably getting fully supplied from Fayetteville each turn (over the sniwy mountains and frozen river, no less!) and losing some to the weather. So, crisis over.

[hgilmer]

How do you know thery are in steady state? And I have moved on from that situation. I am not positive what it was, but it somewhat resolved itself, I think. I have supply now. I wish supply unit didn't cost so much- I have 2-3 with every column.

[Mickey3D]

I have 2-3 with every column.

seems a lot to me !

2 or 3 wagons with a force that will try to move behind ennemy lines, ok. But for a force that is connected to your supply network...