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Gray_Lensman
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Supply Primer

Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:12 am

Here's a synopsis of the supply system as posted by Pocus in one of the beta threads. (Reposted here to allow everyone access to the design information).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Pocus

Supply System

I - Supply points.

In ACW all usages and stocks are expressed in supply points (no chips as in BoA). There is 2 kinds of supply: General Supply (genSpl) and Ammo Supply (Ammo).

Many units have just the stock to be supplied for 2 turns (genSpl) or 2 battles (ammo). Some units are supply wagons, generally with a stock of 20/20 for each element (giving 80/80 as a unit). A fighting element will be more toward a stock of 4/4, meaning 16/16 for the whole unit (considering a unit with 4 elements, which won't be the rule in ACW, units will vary between 1 and 12 elements).

II - Generating Supply

Supply is generated in structures, either with their innate capacity, which is low (can be tweaked to any value in fact, these are parameters in the structures files), as the primary source of supplies will be given by the scripting engine, in order to modelize correctly the variety of situation (factories and such). For example Washington will perhaps receive 500 genSpl each turn from the scripting engine.

Supply generation occurs at the start of hosting for the innate capacity, and at the end of hosting for the scripted one (the SE triggers at the end of hosting).

Each region which have a structure you own and a stock of supply (in genSpl or ammo) will acts as a supply source for the incoming supply phase. If you don't have a structure in a region, you can't have stock (but you can have supply wagons...).

III - Supply distribution

The distribution is made from sources to destinations, it occurs at the begining of hosting. A valid source is a structure with enough supply (enough meaning based on a computation taking into account how much the structure want to keep for itself).

A valid destination is a structure without enough supply OR a supply unit (Supply wagon). => A supply wagon receive supply, but don't give it back during this distribution process.

Coefficients:
The basic idea is that each structure want some supplies, at this stage, based on some coefficients time the structure level. This is tweakable in the structures file. For example one can say that cities want 3 genSpl for each of their level and 2 ammos points, whereas forts will want 10 genSpl and 30 ammos for each of their level.
Supply units (wagons) want also, their coefficient is half their maximal supply storage (its a variable too). So basically a unit with 4 wagons will have a coefficient of 40/40 in both supply.

Iterations and type of movements:

This is where the pools kick in. There is 3 pools used for resupplying purpose: Railroad, riverine and naval (oceanic).

Railroad and riverine can either be used as a tool to transport units, or to transport supply (so the 0 to 3/3 tick shown on the sample image). Depending on how much you have in your pool, how much supply you have on the map and what usage you want to commit, this will cost you more and more of your pool.

What is not used in the supply transportation phase is what is left to move your units with the 2 privileged movement mode: rails and rivers.

Back to 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 commitment: If you can afford the spending, you can have your supply use rails and/or rivers during 0 (zero, you can't afford anything or you want to keep your meager pool for your units) to 3 iterations.

An iteration is a partial distribution (a spreading) of supply from sources toward destinations. There is 3 distributions (iterations each turn).

At most during one iteration, a supply point can travel 5 regions or 40 ticks, what ever is lower. A tick is the distance travelled in one day by the supply distribution unit, a special unit only used by the hosting module (basically a virtual wheeled wagon that is moved around to check distances).

It can appears strange to allow a unit to travel up to 120 ticks (120 days) during a turn of 15 days, but its just a mean to calculate how far a supply point can travel during a turn, thats' why its better to speak of a 'tick' and not a 'day' of travel (or alternatively we can speed up to 300% the speed of the virtual unit... this is tweaked to allow a fair but not too large spreading of supplies). Basically, if you can't use rails or rivers, your supply will spread slowly, from your sources toward your depots and stocks, travelling at most 2-3 regions for each iteration.

So the benefit of having enough rails and rivers points is clear: it allow a faster and more efficient spreading of your supply points.

When a supply point is given to a supply stock which is also a source during one iteration, it can be send forward further, in iterations #2 and #3.

Ideally, you will want to establish supply depots (suppy lane) so that your supply points can spread smoothly and intelligently, without bottlenecks.

For example, if you have a big depot in area A, a gap in area B (nothing to transmit supply , or just a small town without depot) and several supply wagons in area C, if the gap in B is too wide, you won't be supplied correctly. You will need to put a depot, as a relay in B, so that supply can be transmitted from A to B then to C. If you can use railroad, you will be able to augment the distance between each depot, or even pass mountains and bad terrains easily.

IV - Supply wagons

Supply wagons are special units. They are stocks but not sources. So they can query/call for supply points, but won't give them back when needed by other supply wagons or structures. The side effects of this rule are:

a) Supply wagon can't establish by themselves a supply lane.
b) You are assured that the supply in it won't be 'stolen' by a distant & 'hungry' stock in need.
c) You can use them as a manually handled supply system. Just move them toward a strong source, have them resplenish, and then move them back where you need supply in quantity.

Aside that, supply wagons can still transform in supply depot, thus enabling a new supply chain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naval Supply is provided by placing naval transport units in the Shipping Boxes which can now be done by either side, but is most advanteous to the CSA when/if Foreign Intervention is triggered

Have fun digesting this info. As you can tell after reading this, supply distribution is a whole separate sub-system separate but coexisting with the game movement design itself.

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GraniteStater
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:20 am

Thank you, sir.
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Gray_Lensman
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:42 am

There have been posts from time to time requesting more info via filters on where supply is coming from and where it is going to. (additional info than is currently present via the supply filter button itself). However due to the way supply is moved as part of the turn processing, I would imagine it would seriously degrade turn processing and probably would not be acceptable to most player/gamers. I would be surprised if the programmer/developers would devote programming resources to such an unprofitable endeavor.

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Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:10 am

The most important shibboleth to me is 'Wagons/Transports = Magnet for Supplies.'

Is that formation important to you? Give it a Wagon. Going to hunt rabbits in unknown parts? Give it a Wagon.

Doing a River strategy? Give those guys a Wagon and park Transports next to the beach.

Invading a coastline? Give 'em Wagons, and put a good amount of Transports with that fleet. When you land, build a Depot.

Make sure your RR & River capability is up to snuff.

And use the Roster!!!!
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

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Jim-NC
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:29 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Here's a synopsis of the supply system as posted by Pocus in one of the beta threads. (Reposted here to allow everyone access to the design information).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Naval Pool is the ships the USA have in the blockades boxes (the CSA don't have a naval pool).

In case of a what if, with foreign intervention, the system won't change drastically, but the USA pool will be reduced accordingly (this is not a WW2 convoy system!).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have fun digesting this info. As you can tell after reading this, supply distribution is a whole separate sub-system separate but coexisting with the game movement design itself.


Question Gray, wasn't it decided that the CSA would get a naval pool in case of FI? Your post does not indicate that.
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Gray_Lensman
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Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:17 pm

Jim-NC wrote:Question Gray, wasn't it decided that the CSA would get a naval pool in case of FI? Your post does not indicate that.


Note: It's not my post... It's a direct reposting of a 2007 supply post from Pocus. I just removed the "quotes" from around it to make it a little easier to read.

As of v1.14 however, the campaign games do in fact allow for a CSA naval pool. It's of limited usefulness however until the Brits can use it when FI is triggered.

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kglorberau
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:40 am

Gray,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but did I just read that for the Union Navy Supply, you need to park the transports in the "Blockade" boxes or the "Shipping" boxes. I thought they were supposed to go in the Shipping box and have been putting my Transport Fleets (with Brig and Warship escorts) there to supply my amphibious troops and captured cities. I thought that the "Blockade" boxes were to cut off CSA Navy supplies.

Am I wrong in this? Can you clarify.

Thanks in advance for the help.

KgLorberau

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Gray_Lensman
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Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:45 am

kglorberau wrote:Gray,

Maybe I'm mistaken, but did I just read that for the Union Navy Supply, you need to park the transports in the "Blockade" boxes or the "Shipping" boxes. I thought they were supposed to go in the Shipping box and have been putting my Transport Fleets (with Brig and Warship escorts) there to supply my amphibious troops and captured cities. I thought that the "Blockade" boxes were to cut off CSA Navy supplies.

Am I wrong in this? Can you clarify.

Thanks in advance for the help.

KgLorberau


Note: The 1st post of this thread was the intial design notes directly from Pocus. Subsequently, the naval boxes were split into 2 separate boxes... i.e. Shipping Boxes (for naval supply purposes) and Blockade Boxes (for Blockade purposes).

Place transports in the Shipping Box for naval supply purposes.
Place ships in the blockade box for blockade purposes

from the manual:
The USA also has the option to transport Supply by sea to coastal areas and ports. The transport capacity depends on the number of
transport ships allocated to the “World Shipping” box and is displayed on the Transport Assets Panel at the top of the map.

Example: Union shipping allows long distance Supply transport, for example from New York to New Orleans. The process is
automated and will strive to augment the Supply of needy ports and coastal Depots by transporting any excess Supply in the
Northern harbors to where it is needed.


This also applies to CSA naval transports now. (especially helpful after Foreign Intervention)

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kglorberau
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Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:55 am

Thanks Gray,

I guess I have been doing it right.....It helped to build a Depot in the captured port....then the supplies really began to pile up.

KgLorberau

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DaemoneIsos
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This is a key explanation

Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:33 am

Was it Napoleon who said that amateurs spoke of battles, while veterans spoke of logistics?

Thanks for posting this, and I nominate it for a sticky. As one becomes more familiar with the game, this will clearly be important to any serious player.

-D

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:26 am

With the addition of the "Supply Rules tips" recently during game turn processing I found the information useful but it is displayed too fleetingly quite often, so I've copied them here for everyone to take more time reading.

Supply Rule: Each unit can carry an innate stock in food & water (also known as General Supply or simply Supply) and Ammo. Most units will use General Supply each turn and Ammo in battles.

Supply Rule: A valid supply source during the supply distribution phase is a one of these three structures types: City (any level), Depot, or Fort.

Supply Rule: A valid location to stockpile General Supply during the Supply Distribution Phase is a City (level 3+), Depot, Fort or a Supply Wagon. Towns (level 1-2 'city') never request General Supply.

Supply Rule: General Supply is only generated by structures which is then distributed to others structures or nearby units.

Supply Rule: Having enough rail points and river points in the Transport Pool helps greatly when it comes to distributing supply, but only if there is a controlled network in the area where the supply moves though.

Supply Rule: The Supply Distribution Phase is split into three Distributions Segments. Each segment allows the spread of the supply from sources to nearby stocks. Rail and River points will help this distribution.

Supply Rule: When a supply point is given to a supply stock which is also a source during one Distribution Segment, it can be pushed forward further in Distributions Segments #2 and #3.

Supply Rule: Ideally, you will want to establish Supply Depots (supply lanes) so that your supply points can spread smoothly and intelligently without bottlenecks and gaps.

Supply Rule: Beware of not having major gaps between two parts of your supply network. Supply can't move farther than five regions during a given Distribution Segment (Each Supply Phase has three such Segments). It is advisable to create Depots every three to five regions.

Supply Rule: Supply Wagons have the unique ability to attract supply in the Supply Distribution Phase several regions away from any supply stockpile (only structures can stockpile).

Supply Rule: Supply Wagons can't establish a supply lane themselves. This means that a chain of wagons won't be able to transmit supply at the end of the chain. For that you need a chain of structures (Depots generally).

Supply Rule: Supply Wagons never give back their stock to structures. This means that you can manually move your depleted wagons to your rear area stockpiles, have them replenish, and then move them back to the front (by train ideally).

Supply Rule: When the Supply Distribution Phase is done, military units will seek to be replenished from structures or Supply Wagons. They can be replenished even if adjacent to such points of supply.

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:31 am

This is also one of the tips, but it will need to be reworded to reflect the recent CSA Naval Supply capability for Foreign Intervention situations.

Supply Rule: The Union has the advantage of having a Naval Supply System. Ships with a Cargo Capacity in the Atlantic Blockade Box will try to reshuffle supply between the Union-controlled ports and Depots on the coast.


It should probably read something like:

Supply Rule: Ships with a Cargo Capacity in the Atlantic Blockade Box will try to reshuffle supply between controlled ports and Depots on the coast.

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Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:45 am

I have felt like the 9th one down is worded a bit off. I know what it is trying to say, but maybe it should read "Beware of having..." instead of "Beware of not having..."
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Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:48 pm

soloswolf wrote:I have felt like the 9th one down is worded a bit off. I know what it is trying to say, but maybe it should read "Beware of having..." instead of "Beware of not having..."


Good point. Thanks for the feedback... Done... for QuickFix4 and the following patch.

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Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:50 pm

I feel like I've misunderstood some things for quite some time. :bonk: The manual says "Each structure and UNIT in the game will 'pull' a certain amount of supply each turn ... This process is automated and conducted in three consecutive 'push' steps taking many parameters into account."
But now reading through this post it sounds like only supply wagons 'pull' supplies during these three segments, and other units receive their supply in a final distribution phase.

"Supply Rule: When the Supply Distribution Phase is done, military units will seek to be replenished from structures or Supply Wagons. They can be replenished even if adjacent to such points of supply. "

So does this mean that a corps or division travelling without any supply wagons, must be either in or adjacent to a region with a city or depot to be re-supplied? And when determining how much supply to pull, does a depot's "demand", reflect the number of troops drawing from the depot?
It seems that way, but perhaps I'm misinterpeting what I see happen.
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Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:31 pm

KCDennis wrote:I feel like I've misunderstood some things for quite some time. :bonk: The manual says "Each structure and UNIT in the game will 'pull' a certain amount of supply each turn ... This process is automated and conducted in three consecutive 'push' steps taking many parameters into account."
But now reading through this post it sounds like only supply wagons 'pull' supplies during these three segments, and other units receive their supply in a final distribution phase.

"Supply Rule: When the Supply Distribution Phase is done, military units will seek to be replenished from structures or Supply Wagons. They can be replenished even if adjacent to such points of supply. "

So does this mean that a corps or division travelling without any supply wagons, must be either in or adjacent to a region with a city or depot to be re-supplied?


It certainly seems to read that way and makes sense also. The distribution phase by the description above is just the movement of supplies forward to the distribution centers prior to units actually drawing supplies for their own usage.

And when determining how much supply to pull, does a depot's "demand", reflect the number of troops drawing from the depot?
It seems that way, but perhaps I'm misinterpeting what I see happen.


I don't think the depot's demand reflect's the number of troops drawing from the depot but rather a finite capacity that the depot has. Pocus would have to say for certain if this is the case.

Keep bringing on the questions... I'm not certain of these answers myself and I just brought in all the above information to have it in one place for everyone to read and perhaps question the details from Pocus.

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Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:29 pm

Here's a link to some additional and probably more up to date supply information posted in the Wiki:

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Supply

EDIT > Thanks to Lodilefty for providing this link in another thread recently. :)

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Depot supply distribution

Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:10 am

KCDennis wrote:And when determining how much supply to pull, does a depot's "demand", reflect the number of troops drawing from the depot?


Gray_Lensman wrote:...

I don't think the depot's demand reflect's the number of troops drawing from the depot but rather a finite capacity that the depot has. ..

...


It is more just supply flowing from high concetration to low concentration. More troops = more supplies needed. So concetration will be lower here than elsewhere. Next round the supplies will flow from high to low. ep in mind harbours, rail connection and capacity, roads, pull modifiers etc also will impact how much supply gets through.

Nice set of tips btw Gray :cool:
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Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:39 pm

Maybe an Administrator could Sticky this thread so it doesn't sink into obscurity again?

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Cromagnonman
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Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:31 pm

NB that units don't draw supply until after distribution. So during distrib, that depot/structure/wagon will draw up to its max coefficient. Then the units take what they need, up to empyting the structure. The next turn, the structure would be refilled up to its max. Thus a structure is only filled to its max, regardless of how much is desired by the units it feeds. If the units require more than the structure draws, then they will starve, although at a slower rate than if they were completely unsupplied.

This is my interpretation of the aforementioned rules, and is not based on actual testing. However, I have seen too-large stacks starve in small cities connected to the network (e.g. McCracken, KY). Does anyone have more experience/solid data regarding this? Also, if a city doesn't have all the supplies to feed its dependent units, is there a known hierarchy of who gets first dibs on the limited supplies?

I would also point out that supplies do seem to travel a minimum of one region per turn (or phase?). Thus a depot built in the Rockies still draws supplies from Oregon during Winter (I have seen it with my own eyes). Also, per the above rule, units in the Rockies should be able to draw from Oregon even without building a new depot.

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Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:11 pm

What a shame...
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Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:27 pm

W.Barksdale wrote:What a shame...


Yes, but the official info is available at http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Supply :thumbsup:

If we need to clarify or add to the Wiki entry, please reply here! :w00t:
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Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:40 pm

lodilefty wrote:Yes, but the official info is available at http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Supply :thumbsup:

If we need to clarify or add to the Wiki entry, please reply here! :w00t:


Thanks for the link, Lodi.

Oh, and by the way: thanks for being coordinator for four different AGEod games at once.

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:14 am

someone may want to unsticky this, though. It's confusing.

:(

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:58 am

The best supply primer is starving in Arkansas.

ohms_law wrote:someone may want to unsticky this, though. It's confusing.

:(

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Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:47 pm

ohms_law wrote:someone may want to unsticky this, though. It's confusing.

A very good point. Done.
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:21 pm

In case this may be of interest, this is a brief discussion by me from another thread, I just don't understand Supply, http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20413&highlight=waiter:

First, read the Supply Primer so handily stickied.

Now, in a nutshell (I know the Union; the Southern mileage may vary):

Let's take a certain unit you get in southern PA in a 61 start. At first it is locked. It stays locked for about two turns. Then it unlocks. Then you click it to move it and discover that your brand new brave boys, rarin' to go, are starving to death. In Pennsylvania. In the summer.

This is because (a) no Wagon; (b) not next to, or on, a town or city, a Depot. The system knows the unit is there; the system wants to give them supplies, ammo, and so forth, but it can't, because of (a) and (b) just mentioned.

Depots, Forts, Towns of size 3+, Wagons and Transports request Supply. Towns of less than size 3 generate small amounts of Supply, but never request it. The system is a network of pipelines: NYC, Philly, Chicago, etc., generate huge amounts that are pushed along the system of RRs and Roads and Rivers not interdicted by Bad Guys (i. e., MC of 25% or more, not subject to enemy Forts blocking riverine traffic, etc.). The Supply goes to them who ask for it - them's that asks, git.

So you need to be adjacent to, or on, a source of supply, or something that requests supply. If that something is not a fixed Fort, Depot, or 3+ Town/City, it had better be a Wagon or a Transport, cuz otherwise, the waiter ain't takin' your order.

Also, it is important to keep RRs and Rivers up to 100%, Full Capacity, cuz Supply is pushed in three phases and only goes the last mile (like your cable connection at home) if the third and final phase is up to snuff. You can get by with Average, but some guys might not get that extra helping of beans at dinner, cuz the third phase never got to them that turn.

I finally drew the conclusion that if I want to go Reb hunting, I had better darn well make sure I took a Wagon with me. Fire up a 62 start as the USA and check out Burnside, sunning himself on the shore in SC. Go thru two Turns, maybe three. Then check out Burnside - he is about to go poof!, because you didn't build a Depot - Beaufort, SC, is not a 3+ Town, there is no Fort, no Depot. You can park Transports there, that do request Supply, but they will not do the trick, they're too small a capacity, it doesn't work, I know, believe me, I know. The solution to the 'overseas' Burnside problem is to build a Depot there with a Transport unit(s). Then everyone's much happier and has something to eat and something to shoot, cuz the system says, "Hey! I gotta keep that Depot in Supply!" The Shipping Box plays an essential role in this case, BTW.

It's a rough sketch and I'm sure Gray and others could iron out some details, but that's I how I think of it - seems to work.

Goin' huntin'? Take a Wagon. Goin' down Ole Man River to squash Vicksburg? Take Wagons and Transports. Goin' over the seas to land in Mobile and surprise Johnny Reb big time? Wagons and Transports.

Pushin' towards the interior from Nashville? Seize every town and Depot you see, secure your RRs, assert MC and keep the lines open, cuz you gotta keep your Wagons stocked.

Hope that helps. Have a good war and have a good breakfast.
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Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:04 pm

Re-stored and re-stickied :D
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Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:29 pm

lodilefty wrote:Re-stored and re-stickied :D


Great. Appreciate that very much.
"I am here already.", said the hedgehog to the hare.

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Longshanks
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:48 pm
Location: Fairfax Virginia

Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:30 am

Citizen X wrote:Great. Appreciate that very much.


I second that emoticon.

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