what does it takes to topple the CSA

[Spruce]

during my Union game on hard - I had following results =

- capture of Richmond early 1862,
- capture of Nashville and Memphis, mid 1862,
- capture of Jackson, Vicksburg and New Orleand early 1863,
- total occupation of Tenessee, Missisippi, North Carolina and Virginia late 1863,
- capture of Atlanta and partly occupation of Georgia and South Carolina early 1864,

Ok, that means early 1864 I was at a morale level of 175 and the CSA was down to 65. Then I stopped my offenses and settled down to secure the occupation of the South. I did this because the rebel AI was sending divisions all over the place.

As a result my NM seemed to drop - and the CSA's NM seemed to rise. I didn't do any action that costed me NM.

Then all of a sudden 2 Confederate armies are still alive and kicking - one had retreated to the last small city in NC. One was roaming around New Orleans. Also 2 major independent corp were acitve and prevented me from capturing Little Rock and Charleston.

I mean - where does the AI keep getting those troops ! The problem is that those soldiers have all the best generals - the leftovers - from the South and even with artillery superiority the CSA is doing some major damage.

So I tried to destroy one of those armies with 2 of my corps (attritional war) - and I lost 45.000 soldiers in one row of battles.

As a consequence the NM is now equal again - I don't get it. How do you win ? I mean the South has lost all of its provinces with the exception of Florida, Texas, Alabama and South Carolina.

[Jabberwock]

You must learn patience, grasshopper.

1. You took Richmond first.
2. Your accomplishments are all spread out over time.

The game engine does automatically add back NM to the losing side, and subtract it from the winning side.

OK - so you've got Richmond. Or at least you know you can have it within a few turns. Instead of taking it, use it as bait. Put it under long distance siege, and stay on defense to punish the rebels armies as they try to rescue it.

In the meantime, get your Nashville, Memphis, and New Orleans offensives in position.

Now wait for another two or three months, and line up some other objectives in the meantime. You're not really waiting for those other objectives, - you're waiting for Richmond and the other main objectives to start starving.

When the enemy cohesion at Richmond takes a dive, move in on everything you can. That way you get the NM for Richmond and for the Richmond defenders without taking major losses from the extra entrenchments they built while you waited.

To get the "you win" message, you need one big push to drop the enemy NM below the limit or your own above the limit, esp. on hard setting.

BTW - this is for use against Athena. Don't fool around like this in PBEM. Take what you can, and brag about the Victory Point difference, even though you never got the message.

[soundoff]

You must learn patience, grasshopper.

1. You took Richmond first.
2. Your accomplishments are all spread out over time.

The game engine does automatically add back NM to the losing side, and subtract it from the winning side.

OK - so you've got Richmond. Or at least you know you can have it within a few turns. Instead of taking it, use it as bait. Put it under long distance siege, and stay on defense to punish the rebels armies as they try to rescue it.

In the meantime, get your Nashville, Memphis, and New Orleans offensives in position.

Now wait for another two or three months, and line up some other objectives in the meantime. You're not really waiting for those other objectives, - you're waiting for Richmond and the other main objectives to start starving.

When the enemy cohesion at Richmond takes a dive, move in on everything you can. That way you get the NM for Richmond and for the Richmond defenders without taking major losses from the extra entrenchments they built while you waited.

To get the "you win" message, you need one big push to drop the enemy NM below the limit or your own above the limit, esp. on hard setting.

BTW - this is for use against Athena. Don't fool around like this in PBEM. Take what you can, and brag about the Victory Point difference, even though you never got the message.

Cant fault your logic Jabber but its a 'gamey' way of having to play the game...so to speak (except for the PBEM bit)

Mind you...could I find a better way of doing it....Nah

[Banks6060]

Since I only play PBEM...I can agree that a very methodical approach is certainly necessary as the North. But it depends on your style. I've done it several different ways.

Fast and aggressive in Missouri and Kentucky to start....slow in the east with emphasis on securing WV....

I've also tried moving quickly into Virginia and controlling the Shennendoah Valley (mind you with some VERY lucky activation rolls).

Then I've tried a painstakingly slow approach in both east and west...focusing my offensives on the waterways...Mississippi River, Tennessee River and Coastal areas in an attempt to choke my opponent into economic ruin over the long run.

The predictable, but effective left hook ala McClellan is always inspiring.

I've launched a prolonged campaign over the Blue Ridge Mountains from West Virginia and into Western and Central Virginia in an attempt to flank the CSA positions in Northern Virginia.

Quick drives on Nashville and subsequently Chattanooga in the west is another option. The fall of Chattanooga is a big boon for the rebs...hurts their ability to transport troops back and forth quite a bit.

Invasions of either North Carolina via New Bern, Wilmington, or Southport....or Georgia and South Carolina via Savannah or that other city near there .

SO many strategies.

[soundoff]

hmmm... too many alternatives Banksy....mind you I'm approaching the stage where this grumpy old codger is ready for a PBEM smacking from such as yourself, Jabber or any of the other old hands without totally disgracing himself (just to learn how to play better). Mind you if I had the choice I'd first take on that Arsan...me and him have crossed swords so many times already. If old' Wellington had not bolstered the Pennisular so much they'd have never experienced the influx of Anglo Saxon tax exiles and they would all have been speaking French fluently .

Regards

[Pocus]

Morale above 100 erodes slowly. Morale under 100 get back to 100, slowly too.

[Brochgale]

Smash CSA Armies, my nephew just beat me and he did not even have to take Memphis or Vicksburg or NO to do it. He just crushed my armies - he did take Richmond, Atlanta, Mobile and Charleston though. After my last Army was smashed he just walked into what he did not have.

[Spruce]

my point was how can the AI gather such a large army after all those years losing his manpower generating cities?

His montly reinforcments should have been dramatically low as he lost Richmond so early in the war. I kept on pushing the AI.

In the end it seems the AI was still able to field about 6 to 7 huge corps with 25.000-35.000 soldiers in each corps.

How can the AI have that many troops ?

It's not that I avoided battles - only early 1864 I stopped the offense when the AI virtually had no reinforcments left ! I mean with Richmond, Memphis, Nashville, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Jackson, New Orleans, Baton rouge ... taken - were does he get so many reinforcments ?

Is that part of the "hard" rules ?

[Pocus]

From the many towns she keeps? Most of the folks (particularly in the South) were not leaving in the cities at this time you know.

Anyway... I can just tell you that the AI don't cheats on reinforcements or on anything. If she still have that many men, then perhaps we are too generous with the formula both side use to get the conscripts points, but at least you know you play with the same rule as her.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Banks6060]

Very thouroughly....I've been testing a build-up in one of my recent PBEM's....anything less than the current standards would make nearly impossible, any sort of build-up even close to what it was historically.

I've managed to get my armies up to about historical strength by early 1862...approx. 75-85 thousand in the ANV. 35-45 thousand in the AOT. and about 12-15 thousand in AOW.

I dunno if things should be changed....could REALLY hamstring the CSA player.

[johnnycai]

my point was how can the AI gather such a large army after all those years losing his manpower generating cities?

His montly reinforcments should have been dramatically low as he lost Richmond so early in the war. I kept on pushing the AI.

In the end it seems the AI was still able to field about 6 to 7 huge corps with 25.000-35.000 soldiers in each corps.

How can the AI have that many troops ?

It's not that I avoided battles - only early 1864 I stopped the offense when the AI virtually had no reinforcments left ! I mean with Richmond, Memphis, Nashville, Atlanta, Vicksburg, Jackson, New Orleans, Baton rouge ... taken - were does he get so many reinforcments ?

Is that part of the "hard" rules ?

Interesting,
How about some numbers from players who have gotten to the late stages?

In a ongoing PBEM I am in, both the CSA and Union (me) armies have lost over 1 million men so far and we are in late April'65. I estimate the current strength of the CSA remaining forces are about 150-200K while the Union has about 600line regiments and about 200militia regiments in field so a total of just under 1million approximately advancing. I(USA)choose 1,000bounties and full mobilization throughout and I believe the CSA generally was recruiting similarily. It has been an epic struggle, but only 1 or 2 big battles where losses approached 30-50K per army. The US didnt occupy Fredricksburg, Richmond, Wilmington, Norfolk, Memphis, Nashville till '64 so CSA had most of their big conscript cities until then. The CSA enjoyed morale over 105 for most of game until mid'64.
The rebs lost a corps at Ft. Monroe (blocaded and unsupplied) of about 50K, and am not sure if these forces were accounted for in the losses total...does anyone know if attrition losses do add to the total losses?
In any event this is a lot of manpower drain and perhaps should be better represented by morale degradation by both sides once certain thresholds are reached.
A suggestion could be that either losses and/or total men drafted could increase morale decreases from 1 to 2/turn or maybe stop the morale increases that occur once your below 100 for example.

Just thinking out loud.

[Spruce]

Before I tried my Union game on hard I tried the CSA game on hard - which I lost late 1864.

Basicly all my armies were depleted because lack of reinforcments - because if you lose capital you can not recruit anymore. And losing Richmond itsels is a major blow to your recruits (10 recruits IIRC).

So in my Union game I tried the same approach - take Richmond first - then go after every manpower city I could get my hands on. I reckon I only failed to take Little Rock, Charleston and the Texan manpower city. But all the others I had taken - that means 80% to 90% off manpower capacity.

So I was very very surprised to see CSA had so many armies still in the field late 1864.

Beware - the CSA has one major manpower pool - the militia which are granted for free at a certain moment in the game. But that manpower is low quality infantry.

The only explanation - I couldn't find another one if the AI is not cheating - is the AI is very handy at fielding militia in its major armies.

IRRC the CSA has a pool of militia reinforcments of about 70. If you compare that with "raw recruits" that would be double, triple or quadrupple it gets from a major call for volunteers or draft.

[Spruce]

okies, after doing my math I had 18 out of 28 conscription points per turn taken from CSA and with their low morale troughout the game it just surprised me to see that they had so high manpower late game.

Just good to know that there are no cheat rules.

One question tough - how does the CSA get 30 conscription point in the beginning of the game with 28 conscription points in the southern cities. Perhaps the missing ones are from Kentucky or Missourri ?

[GlobalExplorer]

My best strategy has been to move from Norfolk towards Richmond.

Otherwise I always concentrate on Missoury, and send small detachments over the Appalachians. I dont let the AI get Arizona (as the CSA Arizona is one of my 1st objectives).

Of course defend Maryland, build up forces in Kentucky for a big offensive.

[bobkatfan]

it is a bit annoying, playing as the CSA I captured every state from WV west, aside from Mich, then took Maryland, DC, pittsburgh and then when I took phil it finally said, victory! it took a buttload of time to do that though, like late 1862.

[tagwyn]

It is not realistic to expect to waltz through armies led by superior generals in almost every case except for Grant. In reality Grant was not that great a general as he was determined not to stop. :dady:

[ncuman]

it is a bit annoying, playing as the CSA I captured every state from WV west, aside from Mich, then took Maryland, DC, pittsburgh and then when I took phil it finally said, victory! it took a buttload of time to do that though, like late 1862.

Yeah I know what you mean. I just captured D.C. in my game and I was dissappointed when I only got 2 NM points, bringing my total up to about 130. Should be worth 50 or at bare minimum 10. I mean, what does CSA have to do to win? Much less in real life, I suspect, than it takes to win in this game.

[patryn8]

Don't worry JC, the CSA in our PBEM game is applying the scortched earth policy. For some reason, and I think its good that the CSA can hang onto the fight. I've got one solid Army of about 70-80K another smaller army of 40K troopers, then a few independent divisions operating. After late 1863 and through 1865 I've lost Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, and South Carolina. There is heavy USA presence in Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Lousiana, Arkansas, and parts of Alabama. For some reason I've been able to keep morale above defeat levels and continue the guerilla warfare.

In another game I've pretty much taken all of the West minus California, made major incursions into Pennsylvania and Delaware, plus have foreign intervention, but the North continues to play on. All in all its not bad, makes for a nice slugging match back and forth.

[mano'world]

ncuman and patryn8, I read your comments when you posted them and so was pleasantly suprised with what happened in my game this afternoon.

Playing the CSA, it's got to early Jan '64, a date which I think is significant. I had managed to 'hold the line' and was basically in control of Missouri, Kentucky and Virginia (apart from a few wandering Union units) and there were a few seaborne invasions in the Carolinas and Texas. Nonetheless R.E. Lee was besieging Washington and I decided to go for it with a full scale assault. I thought it would be significant but, due to having read your comments, not as much as it turned out.

I started the turn with NM = 131, Union NM = 77. The assault went well and I gained 5 NM. I also gained another 2NM for a victory at Bowling Green in Kentucky. Washington fell. Start of the next turn and....wow!. My NM was now 189! Yes, ncuman, I had received 50NM for capturing Washington. What was also significant was that in Jan '64 the win levels had changed (due to the anouncement of Presidential Elections perhaps?). My win level had dropped from 200 to 175 and so, yes, I had instantly gained a Victory.

Strangely, although my victory was anounced, the war didn't seem to end. I decided, in the spirit of the end of The 1812 War to carry on for one more turn (units not receiving news of the armistice etc) and sure enough, units kept fighting. I'm not tempted to keep carrying on but I think I would have preffered some sort of finality. A graphic of a Victory Parade for example.

Anyway, just saying that if your lucky with your timing the CSA can gain an instant victory.

[Spruce]

This week I had little time to read the forum.

Still, my question remains - how can the CSA AI gather so much forces at the end of the game were it lacked so many conscription points.

In my CSA game on hard - before I played the Union - I had a very similar "course of events". I even did a little better then the AI and my forces were so few in 1863 and 1864 I only had my hands on a few "corp" size fighting bodies.

This is in great contrast to the Confederate AI I played against that held an army (2 to 3 corp) and 2 independent corp after I occupied his key cities.

I suspect the AI being very "handy" at converting its militia conscription point pool - which is free for the CSA - to its main armies.

Any comments,

the grashopper

[Coregonas]

One question tough - how does the CSA get 30 conscription point in the beginning of the game with 28 conscription points in the southern cities. Perhaps the missing ones are from Kentucky or Missourri ?

Hope this can respond your question:

CSA has not 28 conscript base points. Not sure abut the exact number, but perhaps 16, not lost the time to count exactly.

Most of the recruiting areas are giving just 1 BASE conscription point. Some of the cities (as Richmond) are giving several points.

There are several modifiers than change the rate of men willing to join the battle every turn. The modifiers are calculated individually per city. Then, rounded to the nearest. A value 1,4 turns to 1 and 1,6 to 2.

Important: Seems an exact 1,5 turns to 2

Modifiers are mainly those:

1.- City Loyalty -50%-> A 100% Loyalty adds + 50%
2.- NMV modifier -> With National morale 100 adds a +0%. Adds or Substracts +/-5% once NM starts moving up & down.
3.- Blocakde -> -50% Modifier

So a city with 1 BASE Conscript in an unblockaded city with LOYALTY 100% and a NM of 100 has:

1
+50% loyalty 100
+ 0% unblockaded
+ 0% morale
So 1,5 ->

2 points

[teufel0331]

mano'world -- yeah, i think that they allow you to keep playing, if you'd like (a la the Battle of New Orleans, 1814), which i like. have no fear: you won!