Columbiad and Rodman batteries

[aryaman]

I was wondering, Columbiad and Rodman guns were large seacoast guns, however in the game there are Columbiad (CSA) and Rodman (Union) batteries of field artillery, so I was wondering what exactly represent those batteries?

[Nial]

I believe they are just larger smoothbore cannon.

Nial

[aryaman]

I believe they are just larger smoothbore cannon.

Nial

Larger than 12lbrs? I don´t recall any field piece...

[Nial]

I got this from Clovis's mod discription. It supports what I understood to be the case. But my knowledge about Civil War cannon types is incomplete to say the least.

." I disabled Rodman and Columbiad models,because they were only very big smoothbores, but I introduced the naval/coastal rifled artillery, which put an end to the masonry fortification without being deadly against armored vessels... I added the siege ability to siege guns but reduced their damage values."

[aryaman]

." I disabled Rodman and Columbiad models,because they were only very big smoothbores, but I introduced the naval/coastal rifled artillery, which put an end to the masonry fortification without being deadly against armored vessels... I added the siege ability to siege guns but reduced their damage values."

Yes, very big smoothbore seacoast guns, no field pieces. No wonder Clovis erased them.

[Jabberwock]

I was wondering, Columbiad and Rodman guns were large seacoast guns, however in the game there are Columbiad (CSA) and Rodman (Union) batteries of field artillery, so I was wondering what exactly represent those batteries?

Rodman guns represent 30 & 40 lb siege rifles. Rodman had nothing to do with creating those siege rifles, but it was a common nickname for them at the time.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Nial]

This is what I found with a quick search

The Rodman gun was adopted as the standard heavy gun for coastal artillery and in lighter versions for fortress and siege use. During the Civil War the Federal Government purchased about 130 fifteen-inch, 445 ten-inch, and 213 eight-inch Rodman guns from Cyrus Alger & Co. (Boston MA), Fort Pitt Foundry (Pittsburgh PA), Seyfert, McManus & Co. (Reading PA) and West Point Foundry (Cold Spring NY). Many more were cast post-war. Like the famed Gun Club of Jules Verne's "Journey from the Earth to the Moon and Around It," Rodman wanted an even bigger gun to test, and he proposed building one as soon as the first 15-inch had been accepted. In his report to the War Department dated 17 April 1861, he expressed no doubt that a reliable cannon of almost any size could be made with complete success.

The Columbiad was a large caliber, smoothbore, muzzle loading cannon able to fire heavy projectiles at both high and low trajectories.[1] This feature enabled the columbiad to fire solid shot or shell to long ranges, making it an excellent seacoast defense weapon for its day. Invented by Colonel George Bomford, United States Army, in 1811, columbiads were used by the United States coastal artillery from the War of 1812 until the early years of the 20th Century. Very few columbiads were used outside of the U.S. Army, however

If we are going to say that they are just heavier guns than a 20lber and not worry about historical accuracy? Not really a prob with me.

But if we want historical accuracy? I'd say change the names or get rid of em.

Nial

[aryaman]

The game already has "Siege Artillery", which are significantly more powerful and move somewhat slower than regular artillery. Currently, Rodmans and Columbiads are really being treated as larger "regular" artillery and share the same movement rates as "regular" artillery. Is this incorrect?

You are correct, they can´t represent 30 pd siege guns.

[aryaman]

I would advocate for the replacement of those batteries by other historical batteries.
The Union Rodman battery could be replaced by a Wiard battery, a more powerful Light Arty unit with the same range that 10 pdr Parrot.

The Columbiad CSA battery could be replaced by the Whitworth battery, a bit more powerful thatn the 10 pdr Parrot, but with a maximum range of 9 and a higher hit chance. It also would be very expensive.

[Nial]

The Parrot is a good choice for the Union. Came in 10, 20, and 30lb models, so that replaces the Rodman pretty well.


While the Whitworth fits the bill. I agree it should be more expensive do to it's breech loading system. Which in my mind makes it a less worthy choice for the south who are allready strapped for resources at times.
Instead for the South I would suggest the Blakely, since we know that while not exactly common, they were used, though I think mostly as implaced guns. I have seen pictures of Blakely's on carriages. Blakelys also came in 10 different models or sizes.

Nial

[Jabberwock]

Properly, the term Rodman guns should only have been applied to the coastal guns actually designed by Rodman, but it was used historically to describe the siege rifles. Siege rifles is another confusing term. The 30 & 40 lb rifles were designed for siege and garrison duties and were cast using Rodman's principles. Hence the nickname. It was found that for a fairly slow moving army such as the AotP they could be used as field guns. They were definitely used in the field at Turkey Hill (Gaines Mill) and Antietam, probably on quite a few other battlefields.

I believe siege artillery represents 12-15" siege mortars and rifled artillery above 40 lbs., since they had severely limited mobility.

On the other side, Confederate commanders had a tendency to refer to any 10 lb rifle they captured as an ordnance gun, because of the prestige attached to that name.

Columbiad is properly used to refer to a chambered seacoast howitzer, but the term was loosely used to refer to any large artillery piece.

[aryaman]

While the Whitworth fits the bill. I agree it should be more expensive do to it's breech loading system. Which in my mind makes it a less worthy choice for the south who are allready strapped for resources at times.
Instead for the South I would suggest the Blakely, since we know that while not exactly common, they were used, though I think mostly as implaced guns. I have seen pictures of Blakely's on carriages. Blakelys also came in 10 different models or sizes.

Nial

The Whitworth could be an agonizing decission for a CSA player, as the long range would give him a definitive advantage in clear terrain.
The most common Blakely gun was the 12pdr rifle gun, not much different from the Parrot 10pdr already in the game.

[aryaman]

Properly, the term Rodman guns should only have been applied to the coastal guns actually designed by Rodman, but it was used historically to describe the siege rifles. Siege rifles is another confusing term. The 30 & 40 lb rifles were designed for siege and garrison duties and were cast using Rodman's principles. Hence the nickname. It was found that for a fairly slow moving army such as the AotP they could be used as field guns. They were definitely used in the field at Turkey Hill (Gaines Mill) and Antietam, probably on quite a few other battlefields.

.

However the Osprey book on ACW field artillery, quoting a contemporary source indicates that the 20pdr proved too heavy for convenient use as a field gun, and that after Antietam most were replaced by 10pdr Parrots or 3 in Ordnance. If the 20pdr was alrady too heavy, the 30pdr much more so. In any case, if the present Rodman arty unit represents 30pdrs it should be slower than average field arty, while right now it has a movement rate of 100.

[Jabberwock]

However the Osprey book on ACW field artillery, quoting a contemporary source indicates that the 20pdr proved too heavy for convenient use as a field gun, and that after Antietam most were replaced by 10pdr Parrots or 3 in Ordnance. If the 20pdr was alrady too heavy, the 30pdr much more so. In any case, if the present Rodman arty unit represents 30pdrs it should be slower than average field arty, while right now it has a movement rate of 100.

That's correct, siege artillery should move at McClellan advance speed, siege rifles at McClellan retreat speed.

BTW - I don't have that book, who is the contemporary source?

[Jabberwock]

found a good one:

Siege Artillery in the Campaigns Against Richmond By Henry L. Abbot

p. 149 - APPENDIX B.—SIEGE GUNS WITH THE ARMY ON THE MARCH.

[Heeward]

Properly Rodamans are seacoast artillery eight inch to fifteen inch diameter bores.

The rodman field artillery in the game represent 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle, Model 1861. The three inch ordnance rifle were frequently misidentified as "Rodmans" through there service in the US Army. Terry brought one "rodman" (3 inch ordnance rifle) with him during the centennial campaign as well as 12 lb mountain howitzer and gatling guns.

The 3 Inch Ordnance Rifle, Model 1861 was the most common field piece in the Union arsenal, outnumbering napoleons, replacing parrot rifles as the war went on.

[Jabberwock]

Although the name Rodman was also occasionally used to refer to the 3" ordnance rifle, I don't think the game Rodmans fit the profile.

The guns I've been refering to in this thread as 40lb siege rifles are 4.5" siege rifles. They were not cast using Rodmans principles, but they were all produced at his foundry. I'll refer to them as 4.5" rifles from now on. Sorry for adding to the confusion. Here is a blog entry that has a fairly good explanation of the naming confusion surrounding these weapons.

[aryaman]

I think that if you look at the statistics of Rodman and Columbiad batteries in the game they are sort of large smoothbore guns with high defense, maybe intended to represent 32 pdr Naval Guns? In any case I think it would be good them to be replaced by other more historical units.
BTw I see that now pictures for arty have changed, and 10pdr and 20pdr rifle guns had the brass gun picture, while Npoleons had the iron guns ??

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Nial]

Well, the game has 20lbers which we'll consider equivalent to 20lb parrots.
So the Rodman and Columbiad batteries have to be bigger to justify a seperate model. I guess the question we have to ask is, are they supposed to be 30lb+ guns? And are 30lb+ guns just another name for siege cannon, which we allready have modeled? If so? We should just delete them.

Nial

[Nial]

The Whitworth could be an agonizing decission for a CSA player, as the long range would give him a definitive advantage in clear terrain.
The most common Blakely gun was the 12pdr rifle gun, not much different from the Parrot 10pdr already in the game.

Like I said I know they were rare. But they did come in larger models.

Nial

[Eugene Carr]

BTw I see that now pictures for arty have changed, and 10pdr and 20pdr rifle guns had the brass gun picture, while Npoleons had the iron guns ??

yeah this seems to be a reversion to earlier times ( unless I changed it myself and then forgot :wacko

S! EC

[Heeward]

What are the each types of batteries in the game supposed to represent?

Common Civil War Artillery
Field Artillery
6 lb - smoothbores and rifles - Obsolete and generally melted down by late 1862
12 lb Napoleon - 12 Napoleon Gun Howitzer
12 lb Mountain Howitzer - Light gun - favorite of the CSA and used pre and post war in the west.
10 lb Parrot Rifle - 10 Parrot Rifle - Had a reputation for failing catastrophically
3" Ordnance Rifle - Most common rifle in the Union Army (1400 produced) and preferred by all over the Parrot Rifle
20 lb Parrot Rifle - representing heavy field artillery - 20 lb Parrot Rifles and 24 lb Howitzers. Not very mobile
Whitworth Breach loaders - 6 lb and 12 lb versions very few - 2 each? used by the CSA

Siege Artillery
Siege Artillery - Representing 30 Lb Parrot rifles, 4.5 inch rifles etc in field carriages 32 lb smooth bores, 32 lb rifle guns etc The lighter guns are in field carriages, the heavier ones in truck style carriages. The only time I can think of these weapons being used in the field battles are at Shiloh, Corinth, and Antietam. Most likely there are more instances.

Seacoast Artillery
60+ lb Parrot Rifles , 6"+ Rifles, 8"+ Rodmands Columbiads etc. Mounted in a truck style carriage not a field carriages

So where to?

[Gray_Lensman]

yeah this seems to be a reversion to earlier times ( unless I changed it myself and then forgot :wacko

S! EC

Rats... This was my doing... I found discrepancies listing wrongly named graphics with their associated artillery pieces and changed them to match the correct names, not knowing that the graphics themselves were misnamed. I'll fix this in the next update...

To paraphrase an old expression: "You can't make a good omelette without breaking a few eggs".

edit> below is a Quick fix for the Artillery graphics, could someone (quickly) try them out and let me know if they correct the bronze/steel graphics switch. If confirmed I'll submit them to Pocus for another v1.12a (RC6)? update maybe tomorrow (I hope).

Regards
.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[aryaman]

BTW, I was wondering, there are just 2 graphics for all the guns in the game, wouldn´t be cool if any of the graphic modders created different gun pictures for each unit? Well, the light guns are easy to distinguish from the 12 pdrs because of the light arty nato symbol, but it would be nice to have different graphics for 10pdr and 20pdr Rifle so they can be distinguished at first look.

[Jabberwock]

Same source (Abbott) mentioned in previous post. Names in brackets [] as used by the author.

Artillery included in the AotP siege train (1st Connecticut Artillery) during 1864-65:

Mortars
1 13" [Seacoast] Mortar
16 10" [Siege and Seacoast] Mortars
20 8" [Siege] Mortars
36 24 lb Coehorn Mortars

Smoothbores
12 8" howitzers
2 32 pounders
1 24 lb [Field] howitzer
? 24 lb [Siege] gun
8 12 lb howitzers
11 12 lb napoleons

Rifles
13 100 pounder Parrotts (6.4")
44 30 pounder Parrott (4.2") + 1 30 lb Brooks Rifle
17 4.5" [Ordnance] Rifle
9 20 pounder Parrotts (3.67")
4 10 pounder Parrotts (2.9 or 3")
4 3" Ordnance Rifles
1 24 lb Sawyer Gun (5.8") - experimental
1 6 lb Sawyer Gun (3.67") - experimental


Artillery included in the AotP siege train (1st Connecticut Artillery) during 1862:

2 200 lb Parrotts (btty. B)
10 4.5" rifles (bttys. A & I)
5 30 lb Parrotts (btty. H)
10 13" mortars (bttys. F & G)
16 10" mortars (bttys. C, D, & E)

also used by 5th NY Vols.:

5 10" mortars
5 8" mortars

also available but not used by the siege train in the field:

2 8" mortars
3 8" howitzers
4 20 lb Parrotts
4 10 lb Whitworths


Siege Artillery accompanying the army on the march during 1863 (1st CT Arty., Batteries B & M) - these were used at Fredericksburg under Sedgewick, and during the Mine Run campaign:

8 4.5" [Ordnance] Rifles

Comparing the 4.5" to the 30 lb. Parrott ... The 4.5" was noted as easier to handle (capable of moving 30 miles a day under good conditions), but less reliable and used inferior ammunition.

further notes (p. 124):

The 20-pounder Parrott (calibre 3.67 inches) proved to be too small to give the precision of fire demanded of a siege gun, and to be too heavy for convenient use as a field gun. Moreover, its projectiles did not seem to take the grooves as well as those of either smaller or larger calibres. The gun was accordingly not regarded with favor.

The two siege batteries of 4.5-inch Ordnance guns, which accompanied the army of the Potomac in all its movements from Fredericksburg until the final crossing of the Rapidan, were of great use, from their superior range and accuracy, in silencing troublesome field batteries and in other field service; and could be moved with the reserve artillery without impeding the march of the army.

[Nial]

Same source (Abbott) mentioned in previous post. Names in brackets [] as used by the author.

Artillery included in the AotP siege train (1st Connecticut Artillery) during 1864-65:

Mortars
1 13" [Seacoast] Mortar
16 10" [Siege and Seacoast] Mortars
20 8" [Siege] Mortars
36 24 lb Coehorn Mortars

Smoothbores
12 8" howitzers
2 32 pounders
1 24 lb [Field] howitzer
? 24 lb [Siege] gun
8 12 lb howitzers
11 12 lb napoleons

Rifles
13 100 pounder Parrotts (6.4")
44 30 pounder Parrott (4.2") + 1 30 lb Brooks Rifle
17 4.5" [Ordnance] Rifle
9 20 pounder Parrotts (3.67")
4 10 pounder Parrotts (2.9 or 3")
4 3" Ordnance Rifles
1 24 lb Sawyer Gun (5.8") - experimental
1 6 lb Sawyer Gun (3.67") - experimental


Artillery included in the AotP siege train (1st Connecticut Artillery) during 1862:

2 200 lb Parrotts (btty. B)
10 4.5" rifles (bttys. A & I)
5 30 lb Parrotts (btty. H)
10 13" mortars (bttys. F & G)
16 10" mortars (bttys. C, D, & E)

also used by 5th NY Vols.:

5 10" mortars
5 8" mortars

also available but not used by the siege train in the field:

2 8" mortars
3 8" howitzers
4 20 lb Parrotts
4 10 lb Whitworths


Siege Artillery accompanying the army on the march during 1863 (1st CT Arty., Batteries B & M) - these were used at Fredericksburg under Sedgewick, and during the Mine Run campaign:

8 4.5" [Ordnance] Rifles

Comparing the 4.5" to the 30 lb. Parrott ... The 4.5" was noted as easier to handle (capable of moving 30 miles a day under good conditions), but less reliable and used inferior ammunition.

further notes (p. 124):

The 20-pounder Parrott (calibre 3.67 inches) proved to be too small to give the precision of fire demanded of a siege gun, and to be too heavy for convenient use as a field gun. Moreover, its projectiles did not seem to take the grooves as well as those of either smaller or larger calibres. The gun was accordingly not regarded with favor.

The two siege batteries of 4.5-inch Ordnance guns, which accompanied the army of the Potomac in all its movements from Fredericksburg until the final crossing of the Rapidan, were of great use, from their superior range and accuracy, in silencing troublesome field batteries and in other field service; and could be moved with the reserve artillery without impeding the march of the army.

Nice info, this helps with the Union side

So where does this leave us?

I assume we are lumping all mortars,and siege cannon into the one catagory/ model that we are currently using? Though the thought occurs to me that it would be more realistic to have a light and heavy siege gun category/ models.

As far as the Rodman/ Columbiad debate/discussion? There are several models to choose from where the north is concerned. The south is a bit trickier. They just didn't have the production variation due to lack of resources. We could add something that was rare just to keep it even? But one famous cannon (Widow Blakely) here or there shouldn't give the south the ability to mass produce multiple batteries of a one of a kind type. Would it be unfair or ahistorical to change the Rodman to the 4.5" rifle, delete the columbiad, and give the south more 20lber batteries?

Thoughts?



Are we restricted to the number of models we have now?

Nial

[aryaman]

Nice info, this helps with the Union side

So where does this leave us?

I assume we are lumping all mortars,and siege cannon into the one catagory/ model that we are currently using? Though the thought occurs to me that it would be more realistic to have a light and heavy siege gun category/ models.

As far as the Rodman/ Columbiad debate/discussion? There are several models to choose from where the north is concerned. The south is a bit trickier. They just didn't have the production variation due to lack of resources. We could add something that was rare just to keep it even? But one famous cannon (Widow Blakely) here or there shouldn't give the south the ability to mass produce multiple batteries of a one of a kind type. Would it be unfair or ahistorical to change the Rodman to the 4.5" rifle, delete the columbiad, and give the south more 20lber batteries?

Thoughts?



Are we restricted to the number of models we have now?

Nial

Options IMO
1) delete them for good
2) Replace them by something different from we have now, no point in adding a model that is basically the same as one already in the game, that is the reason of my proposal of Wiard guns for the North and Whitworth for the South
3) Convert them into another kind of siege (light siege?) artillery
4) make them rifle coastal batteries