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Mickey3D
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:29 am

Very interesting, thanks for the link.

I think this one will create some hot debate :D

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tyler11
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:44 am

Not gonna lie the author of the second one is very very pro north in writing those myths...he has a point on some of them but claiming stuff like the south did not go to war because of states rights in just pathtic. Or that the war wasnt about taxs and terriffs. Yes it wasnt the like the upfront cause the to the war but they caused alot of southerns all the way back then to have a sense of being attacked by the north even all the way back there so it contributed.

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Citizen X
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:36 pm

As a foreigner to the US I didn't follow the debate to all odds and ends but have read Mr Pickens inauguration speech (or was it held on the secession congress) lately. Based on this speech alone I'd say that the author is right in the sense that Mr Pickens arguments are somehow selfcontradictionary.
In the second half of the speech he confronts the federal government with his proposition that a state has the right to legislate or abolish any law to their liking and even secede. Whereas in the first half of his speech he lodges a complaint with that very same federal government for not interfering vigorously enough with the very same rights of legislation in other states.
Not at all convincing.

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TheDoctorKing
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Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:44 am

James Loewen is a fine historian and I recommend his book "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader". This is a collection of statements made by southern leaders before, during, and after the Civil War explaining their participation (or opposition) to the secession campaign and the post-Civil War continuing resistance to racial equality. He demonstrates clearly that the southern leadership thought that the war was about slavery. After the war, when they had been forced by military defeat to accept that slavery was dead, they then turned to the issue of white supremacy, saying that they had been engaged in a crusade to ensure that America remained a "white man's country". They then raised the point of states' rights, because with the federal government having at least a lukewarm commitment to racial equality under Republican administrations (most of the rest of the 19th century), the southerners needed more autonomy for state governments in order to impose their vision of a white-dominated political and economic system.

Loewen's point about states' rights is that, before the Civil War, the southerners had a great degree of control over the federal government. They were _opposed_ to states' rights because the northern states were trying to use their own autonomy to hinder federal enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act. The northern states were arguing that they had the right to decide who was a citizen of their state, and if a slave made it to the north the northern states wanted to prevent their master from being able to take them back. The south used its influence in the federal government to try to force the northern states to give back runaway slaves. Federal enforcement was pretty ineffective, and the southerners were outraged at the way northern states were subverting federal law. In 1857, the pro-southern majority on the Supreme Court decided the case of Dred Scott, a Missouri slave who sued for freedom on the grounds that he had been taken to a free state, Illinois, as well as free territories, by his master. The Court held that Scott's master retained property rights in him despite laws to the contrary that said that slaves could not be brought into free territory. This was a direct blow at the right of northern states to outlaw slavery in their own territory.

The truth is that states' rights is not an invariable principle in American politics. Support or opposition to states' rights depends entirely on what the states are trying to do and on how much power the group making the argument has in the federal and state governments. For example, when states began legalizing marijuana for medical use in the 1990s, liberals mostly supported states' rights, at least as regards medical marijuana. But when states wanted to outlaw gay marriage, then liberals pointed out that the constitution requires that each state give "full faith and credit" to the public acts (presumably including marriages) of other states. Conservatives supported states' rights to outlaw gay marriage but opposed states' rights to decide what drugs doctors could prescribe. And so forth - anybody who follows American politics can come up with a dozen more examples without having to stop for breath.
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Ol' Choctaw
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Gray_Lensman
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ERISS
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Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:12 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:How do you explain the number of northern abolitionist that clamored for the end of slavery of the Blacks? or the growing numbers of Catholic irish that were immigrating during those same years?

The anti-slaverists often didn't want to free their own slaves. Other northern who couldn't buy slaves had to rent immigrants in waged labor.
North could abolish slavery as they had many immigrants to be compelled in waged labor. South had fewer and would be weakened.

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Gray_Lensman
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