AGEOD Forums

Hi folks, I know most people tend to play against the AI only so as an avid PBEM player I wonder why this is. To me the game is far better against another human.

So a poll where you can (anonymously) give your thoughts. Please add to these below if you would like.

Cheers, Chris
P.S. It seems to me that most long term game communities are run by PBEM players as this gives far longer life to games (and I mean many years for games such as The Campaign Series, Steel Panthers, Combat Mission and TOAW). The reason for the long life is that while AI's like Athena will eventually lose their looks and charm, us PBEM's never get old!

When you play against the AI, you get to play at exaclty the pae that suits yourself. With a human opponent, you risk having to wait for a turn when you are ready to play and/or you risk feeling bad because someone is waiting for you.

Also, and I mean this as no disrespect to AGEOD's efforts to make PBEM easier, when you play against the AI, you don't need to pay attention to files and transfers and suchlike.

Y'know, that poll might've been good as a multiple choice poll, BTW

Rafiki wrote:Y'know, that poll might've been good as a multiple choice poll, BTW

Yes I did think that but I'm a bit of a virgin poll wise

Hi!

Yes, multiple choice poll would have been nice...
I voted for "Athena gives me everything i need"
But i could also have vote for "I don't have time", "i don't want to wait for turns" and a couple others reasons.

Also, for an option that it's not on the poll: i´m not a competitive person at all, so wining (or most probably losing :bonk is not what i look for on a game like this.
I play this kind of games mainly for some kind "let's relive history".
I like a competent Ai that makes the game fun, but also an AI who makes historic and credible things (even stupid ones)
That kind of historic feeling its not easy to find on an AI (i have played tens of EU2 campaigns with a lot of house rules searching for historic outcomes that get trashed by the ai when for example, Ottomans are conquered by Sweden leure: :grr
But i think most PBEM player wont give the historical game play i look for if they are too interested on wining and use gamey tactics and the like...

But mostly its a problem of time/convenience: i can't play on weeks and then play 8 hours on just one evening...

Cheers!

Hobbes wrote:Yes I did think that but I'm a bit of a virgin poll wise

I'd offer to update it, but I lack the right combination of access and know-how to do so.

I have never played PBEM because it DID seem like you could only play a turn or 2 a day and you always had to keep checking the e-mail to see if your opponet had responded (and i'm not sure I am computer literate enough to transfer files ect).

But I DID play Cilvil War generals 2 on Sierras game site and although it was a Tactical turn based game it was pretty realistic and your right...Humans are a lot more devious, tricky, and make strategy something that you can't save a game and do something different.

However we DID run into problems in some instances with players that where VERY computer savvy and figured out how to change Morale, Unit strength, and other settings a (and this was a site that the mean age was mid 30's).

This more or less killed the site as (I was a Moderator...kinda like a sheriff with banning powers on there) people don't mind losing but DON'T want to be cheated or see EVERY little crack in the game exploited (Lords of the Realm 2 was a good example) by these few individuals.

if there was a site where you logged in and could find opponents to play right there oR maybe TCIP I think it would be a lot more acepted because you responded RIGHT NOW, played as long as agreed and met up and played from a save.

Myself, if there isn't a way to play without waiting a day or more to get a move or continue the game I would just as soon play the AI on harder and harder settings.

Just my opinion.... GrudgeBringer (BTW I am 57 and have been playing these games for 40 years, since the original Risk and Avalon Hill days)

Rafiki wrote:I'd offer to update it, but I lack the right combination of access and know-how to do so.

Hopefully the poll will give the general feeling of the people that will never play PBEM. Comments in the thread can show the finer points.

Cheers, Chris

arsan wrote:Hi!

Yes, multiple choice poll would have been nice...
I voted for "Athena gives me everything i need"
But i could also have vote for "I don't have time", "i don't want to wait for turns" and a couple others reasons.

Also, for an option that it's not on the poll: i´m not a competitive person at all, so wining (or most probably losing :bonk is not what i look for on a game like this.
I play this kind of games mainly for some kind "let's relive history".
I like a competent Ai that makes the game fun, but also an AI who makes historic and credible things (even stupid ones)
That kind of historic feeling its not easy to find on an AI (i have played tens of EU2 campaigns with a lot of house rules searching for historic outcomes that get trashed by the ai when for example, Ottomans are conquered by Sweden leure: :grr
But i think most PBEM player wont give the historical game play i look for if they are too interested on wining and use gamey tactics and the like...

But mostly its a problem of time/convenience: i can't play on weeks and then play 8 hours on just one evening...

Cheers!

Arsan, a great ambassador for the game, so it does surprise me that a person such as you does not try PBEM. It is possible if you find the right opponent to have games where winning is not so important. It's nice to try and win the game of course but of more importance is to enjoy the game and find somebody who plays with similar thoughts to yourself.

There are many out there. For AGEOD games I have found Gene who I love to play against and we are closely matched but also I think we play the game in the way we like to see it played. Sometimes also with PBEM games you meet people you like to play against in various similar games and you get in contact with when a new game comes out to try it. Somebody you trust and enjoy playing against.

One of the great things about PBEM is that you find people with similar interests and some turns come with interesting dialog. Sometimes when you know each other well you can goad each other a little.
Athena will never tell you your last move was a little daft!
Also she will never tell me she has an interest in Astronomy which I share.

Chris

I don't have time for pbem. Simple as that.

Hobbes wrote:Athena will never tell you your last move was a little daft!
Also she will never tell me she has an interest in Astronomy which I share.

Chris

Chris, I have an interest in Astronomy. Tell me for example why a Brown Dwarf is a theorical construct.

Athena wrote:Chris, I have an interest in Astronomy. Tell me for example why a Brown Dwarf is a theorical construct.

Athena, darling what do you think of my movements on last night game??
Sure they weren't daft, were they??

I greatly enjoy a PBEM game due to the competitive aspects of playing against a human as well as the more intelligent and imaginitive gameplay that you see. I always feel a bit empty after I win against the computer.

I played one partial email ACW game until my oponent quit. While I didn't intend it, I haven't gone back to the game since. A lot of this has to do with the messy email technology in this game (and yes I am still not happy with AGEOD dropping the web based game play module) and partly because I was suffering from patch fatigue (figured I would just wait a while).

I think as a previous poster alluded to, the key is finding compatible playmates. I haven't played a great deal of email games in my life (this, Korsun Pocket, Strategic Command) but I have generally found that it is a nice bunch of people that already have similar interests, cheating has never been an issue. Ocasionally, one may even find a great email buddy. As far as finding the time, I am pretty relaxed and don't care if a game drags on - just find someone who is not looking for 1 or 2 turns a day- I think there are plenty out there.

I know I'm not supposed to be in this poll since I much prefer email games so I didn't actually fill out the poll.

Athena wrote:Chris, I have an interest in Astronomy. Tell me for example why a Brown Dwarf is a theorical construct.

Well Athena I seem to have underestimated you but are you
not referring to the Black Dwarf?

Love, Chris

I don't play PBEM because games don't have good PBEM security. I found it was the standard for players to cheat and I gave up on playing PBEM because of this problem.

Probably the best PBEM security I saw was on Adanac Command Studies Napoleonic game of the 1805 and 1809 campaigns. It did the turn processing right after the second player closed his turn. That way when the first player ran his turn the results were already fixed and there was no rerun cheat possible, the most abused form of PBEM cheating.

Hosted games are the worst way to go as the host can cheat with impunity because he can always rerun turns until he gets a result he likes and none of the other players can the same to even the score.

I also don't like PBEM or RTS realtime because the gameplay is so choppy and a game takes way too long to get anywhere with. I like playing the AI because it is always ready to play when I am and never complains when I figure it's time to quit and do something else.

I would like to see games with better, smarter AI's that can use all the game's features that we humans do. The biggest downside to the BoA AI was that it was very poor at doing amphib transport of ground troops, didn't create or destroy depots and did a very poor job of getting trashed units to a safe place where they can recoup their strength.

Instead of petty pretty graphics I'd rather see more time invested in improving the AI as I am getting to the point of being way too bored with pathetic AI's and am not going to waste my money buying games with junk AI's and pretty graphics. Time to go back to board wargames and just play them solitiare to have fun games.
Omnius

Omnious, what PBEM games have you played? Maybe some games attract a higher % of cheaters. Many people seem to find cheating a big problem in PBEM games but I certainly haven't found that in the games I have played.

I have accused two people of cheating in the past 15 years and both of them managed to make me feel pretty daft after very good explanations
and very fine play after the accusation.

You can normally tell if someone is cheating if you play against them for long enough. I certainly haven't found it to be an endemic problem. 95% of people I have played have been fine I think and of the other 5% most have probably been just exceptional players.

Find a few people who enjoy the same type of games as you and stick with them - but also try a new person every so often.

Chris

Hobbes wrote:Hi folks, I know most people tend to play against the AI only so as an avid PBEM player I wonder why this is. To me the game is far better against another human.

I am not "voting" in your poll because it is nothing more than a thinly veiled, sophomoric attack on those who do not prefer to play the way you do. Your polemics and invective are very offensive, particularly when you identify yourself as an official representative of AGEod, which needs to respond, instead, intelligently and positively to the interests of the marketplace.

I play a lot by e-mail (and FTF), but I am a champion of those who have suffered the long wait for computer wargames to live up to their original promise of providing a challenging nonhuman opponent.

If you think that PBEM or other multi-human, non-AI playing modes are going to keep computer wargaming alive, you are merely furthering its demise.

Face it and deal with it. At least three quarters of computer wargamers play solitaire. They want games that satisfy their preference. That is where the rubber meets the road and where the money is to be made. PBEMers are not now, and never will be, numerous enough to sustain the hobby as the mainstream customer base.

This poll is a pure member initiative.

However, we found it quite interesting and complementary with our previous polls.

This is not a poll that will make us stop Pocus to work continuously on the AI or to improve the AI interface. I hope that everybody is 200% convinced of that.

However, I personnaly find very interesting that the choice to play AI or PBEM is 90% due to personnal life management (work, wife, kids, etc.) rather than related to game aspects.

Best regards,

Korrigan

Hobbes wrote:Hopefully the poll will give the general feeling of the people that will never play PBEM. Comments in the thread can show the finer points.

Cheers, Chris

I say, this is pretty one sided at the moment.

Cat

I can't answer the poll, as I am pbem-ing...so I cant view the results either....what does the poll state as treason?

Bertram wrote:I can't answer the poll, as I am pbem-ing...so I cant view the results either....what does the poll state as treason?

Not sure I would have the time - 52% (23 of 44 votes)

There is a link at the lower right corner of the poll to view results without voting.

Bertram wrote:I can't answer the poll, as I am pbem-ing...so I cant view the results either....

Sure you can!

Having set the poll I am actually quite amazed at the number of votes for not having the time, it's not the result I expected at all. I only play one AACW PBEM game but I'm not sure I would have the time to play against Athena. I hear she is quite demanding!

I only play around 6 or 7 turns a week as Union, I guess on average about 40 minutes a day. I have a feeling people who play Athena would put at least this amount of time in?

Cheers, Chris

i think that what most people who say they dont have time mean is that, when playing athena the turns will probally take as long as a pbem turn but in a pbem game you would feel obligated to play every day, the time element would mean they cant commit to an hour everyday, bloody kids!!!!

keith wrote:i think that what most people who say they dont have time mean is that, when playing athena the turns will probally take as long as a pbem turn but in a pbem game you would feel obligated to play every day, the time element would mean they cant commit to an hour everyday, bloody kids!!!!

I'm playing a chap at the moment in the Campaign Series, we chose a huge scenario and we send a turn back to each other every 3 or 4 weeks.
Whenever we can be bothered. When we send a turn we have a chat about how the world has changed in-between turns and reflect on the football results. It's nice to have a move to make when you feel like it.

I wonder if people who have never tried a PBEM game think you have to make a turn every day? In fact you just need to find the opponent that suits you and makes turns at your own pace. You can make good friends across many games.

Cheers, Chris

In my case, the "time problem" probably means that if i have a free afternoon i want to play for 4 hours doing maybe six or seven turns straight and then possibly i will not find time to play for 3 o 5 days or maybe for a couple of weeks.

Difficult to do this on PBEM...

arsan wrote:In my case, the "time problem" probably means that if i have a free afternoon i want to play for 4 hours doing maybe six or seven turns straight and then possibly i will not find time to play for 3 o 5 days or maybe for a couple of weeks.

Difficult to do this on PBEM...

True, but this is an extreme example?

Hobbes wrote:True, but this is an extreme example?

No, that's the usual! leure: leure:

arsan wrote:In my case, the "time problem" probably means that if i have a free afternoon i want to play for 4 hours doing maybe six or seven turns straight and then possibly i will not find time to play for 3 o 5 days or maybe for a couple of weeks.

Difficult to do this on PBEM...

+1

If this is extreme, call me an extremist!

Aha - 2 perfect opponents!