Rise of Prussia, Revolution under Siege and Civil War nostalgia and engine question

[marek1978]

I recently played again Rise of Prussia and realized once again how great this game is. The same goes for RUS or CWII.
These are brilliant operational/strategic level games with great political and history twists. I love map scales – they give sense of space and they allow to recreate pre-industrial war gaming. I love supply system, army structures things. These are just brilliant.

I was wondering if you guys are ever going back to those kind of gaming with the new engine? Using its more powerfuls and modern potential to add more politics and economy?
Just imagine – Wars of Napoleon or Wars of Succesion – in Rise of Prussia map scale and strong AI.
Dream come true.

[Don Powell]

hmm .... Did they not achieve that with FOG Empires?


That's a real question - not a challenge - since I have not really had a chance to play with it too much.

A while back I had asked what was (after PON of course) the next best AGEOD game for economic development and politics - and Pocus had stated that the upcoming (at that time) FOG : E would be the 2nd best in those categories after PON.

Have you tried FOG : E ?

If so, did it fall short of any expectations ?

[Pocus]

FOG Empires is a good first shot with the Archon engine, I don't regret moving to this new engine, definitively.

Ultimately, I would like to tackle again almost all topics we previously did at AGEOD , but our team is small, so producing a game takes time. People can speed up the process by forming up a team and approaching Slitherine telling them they would like to redo a specific AGEOD game but with the Archon engine. I would certainly gladly help them get up to speed.

Barring that, you'll have to wait for me and Slitherine re-creating one of the old AGEOD game and it can take years or forever!

[Durk]

Pocus, I do know several AGEOD games have been developed by knowledgeable gamers. Realistically, how much about the nuts and bolts of how these games are designed would the team need to know to be able to bring a game into the Archon, ok modder, experience modder or just an enthusiastic fan?

[Pocus]

If you use Empires as a canvas (region based, units, generals), experienced modder level is sufficient. It won't have all the flavors of Rise of Prussia probably, but very close to it, like 95%.

Then, if you know how to program in a simple language, given Archon gamerules are in text files, you can progressively add events and game rules changes. Plus I'll be there and if you need a simple event, I can do it in 10 mn on my week-end time.

I think that's more about staying motivated and not fearing to total 500 hours of modding in the end ...

[ERISS]

Yeah, Andatiep is still fed up after years, I think, he didn't know what he launched with Rus-Gold
EDIT: I mean, launch as a modding work, and he hopped we would work more with him

[Durk]

One thing he launched was the most intriguing wargame available. I play RUS a lot and am still learning all the complexities built into this wonderful game. RUS Gold has so many avenues of diplomacy and game play I am not certain I will ever come close to mastering, but no matter, it is so delightful to play.

[Baris]

I think jump from ancient times to 18&19 century will be big for modders. I remember first RUS developed then RUS gold and Espana. AJE needed big testing maybe. If maybe another game about recent centuries with the new engine it will be easier for modders&scenario designers to have perspective. As I mentioned before Andatiep had ideas about Turkish War of Indepence(1919-1922) but after Rus and Espana games.

In my perspective wargaming community is very conservative. Even ROP, RUS Gold and Espana didn't have much attention what they deserve.

But as mentioned in the first post adding some economy and political environment can be good but I don't know how it will have similar operational strategy in the new engine as in previous games.

[marek1978]

I think Field of Glory is a beautiful game. The way trade is solved is pretty innovative and I think it can be applied in a very beneficial way to XVI – XIX century reality. The same goes for managing State, administration and political system. All of those are surprisingly good.
Yet the game is grand strategy one – with yearly turns and civilization perspective. Very different from operational one – like RUS and ROP or CW2. I believe that coming back to those legacy tittles with new engine and adding more economy and politics would be great.
Moreover – games like Wars Of Napoleon – that never really kicked in cause old engine was struggling could be redone with new engine as well.
I think as well that new engine and the way it manages economy, trade, and politics combined with monthly/2week turns and War of Napolean/Wars of Succesion map ( or bit more dense) could make a great series of game covering XVI-XIX history. Especially if they could use Pike and Shot game as a place to export tactical battles.
Just a thought,

[Baris]

All I agree with. What I mention was suddenly a group of modders won't appear with an idea of new ROP to Slitherine for the new engine. It takes time and first they must see XVI – XIX century game. It is not impossible for innovative people but very difficult task. I remember Altaris have designed EAW with the help of Ageod. But engine was similar after BOA for many years.

XVI – XIX century will be more difficult it will need more than modders if it will go some political and economic game. Pocus said team is small.

[Taillebois]

Thank you Pocus and all others who helped with these games.

They bring history alive, like when this morning when I read:

"In January 1815, a last humiliation was suffered by the British Army at the Battle of New Orleans, where General Andrew Jackson imposed a bloody defeat, indeed a massacre, on a particularly incompetent British general, Pakenham, kinsman of Wellington."

Ah yes, I thought. There's a scenario on that in Ageod's Wars in America. So I fired up the PC and duly got massacred like Pakenham before.


NB quote was from Alistair Horne - How Far From Austerlitz.

[Baris]

Yep. For me not seeing 57th Regiment of M.Kemal would be sad for me in AGEod game for 10 years playing this game. Good for you, you'll have more wargaming about what is yours.

[Fatus]

Pocus, I do know several AGEOD games have been developed by knowledgeable gamers. Realistically, how much about the nuts and bolts of how these games are designed would the team need to know to be able to bring a game into the Archon, ok modder, experience modder or just an enthusiastic fan?

With access to the main source code? The ability to code a parser; automate and translate most of the 'information' to the new engine. Fill in the missing data required by the new engine by hand.

2 elite (K & R types people) programmers can do it in 1 month working 7 days a week full time. 1 part time artist to draw missing portraits. They'll need to automatically understand the code base which will require an extra couple weeks. 80/20 rule.

Or 5-8 Sub par average programmers; 6 months

Lastly, 30 Awful (in and out) Programmers; 2 years.

[Baris]

I've remembered Squalor and Bertram playing and I've read those ROP pbem reports. I even remember playing Prussia against Squalor. Those were the days.. Not many players left in the past unfortunately

[marek1978]

One additional thought.
Maybe, first game to transfer from old resources in to new engine is AJE. As this is ancient tranfering tactical battles would go along Empires way.
And Economy and trade could be transferred from Empires as well. Say – having more less a regular AJE game with montly turns and every year ( or twice a year ) one empire turn – for trade, empire management and diplomacy.
Operational map for moving the armies could be old AJE map – or maybe one bit more dense. AJE regions would be just for moving troops armies – and group of the AJE regions would be Empiere region – for exampne Syraccuse from empires is one region and in AJE – 4/5.
So controlling all of them in “operational” level would give control for “strategic” region in Empire level.
Just a thought