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Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:36 am
by ERISS
Boomer wrote:But if installing a game (say, a Paradox title) requires installing and setting up a Steam account, then it is by nature DRM.

Yes, that's why GamersGate is also a DRM, what they deny. But Gg is very easily cracked on the games you bought them, so you won't longer need Gg account to install their bought games (everyone can mail me to help for your Gg games being better).

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:34 pm
by Jarkko
I don't need Steam to run CK2 or MoTE. I can copy the game files to another computer without Steam and the games run just fine without any Dosboxes or anything; just double-click the game icon and it launchs. I have done this, copied from my tabletop (on which I installed the games with Steam) to my laptop which don't have Steam at all, and the games run just fine. For all that I care, Steam could go under now and never be heard of, and that would not in any way hamper my ability to play the Paradox games.

Just like you have to create a GamersGate or GoG account to be able to buy from there and then ditch the account, you can do exactly the same with Paradox games bought from Steam. Create a Steam account, install the game, ditch the Steam account, uninstall Steam and never use it again. Your Paradox games will run just fine and you will notice zero difference.

Please don't come crying in a strategy game thread about some shooter or football game or something which is handled differently in Steam. That is not how Paradox games are handled there, and I couldn't care less how your first person shooter game handles in Steam. I for one don't play shooter (well, ok, I admit I have played Team Fortress2) or sports games, I have zero interest in such games and habits, and if you have woes with your weird habits then what on earth does that have to do with the subject of this thread?

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:24 pm
by ERISS
Jarkko wrote:Just like you have to create a GamersGate or GoG account to be able to buy from there and then ditch the account,

Nope, Gamersgate need their account to install all their games. Disconnect internet, and you can no longer install a Gg game, as you need to log on the Gg server to download the installation files [The trick is to take these temporary drm-free (if you bought the so-so drm-free games from Gg) install' files before the Gg downloader removes them...].

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:15 pm
by gekkoguy82
ERISS wrote:Nope, Gamersgate need their account to install all their games. Disconnect internet, and you can no longer install a Gg game, as you need to log on the Gg server to download the installation files [The trick is to take these temporary drm-free (if you bought the so-so drm-free games from Gg) install' files before the Gg downloader removes them...].


GG plainly gives you the option to keep or delete the install files post installation. They aren't tricking you into anything. If you elect to keep the file, then you no longer need gg to install that program again.

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:34 pm
by DaiMonPaul
gekkoguy82 wrote:GG plainly gives you the option to keep or delete the install files post installation. They aren't tricking you into anything. If you elect to keep the file, then you no longer need gg to install that program again.


You still need to log into your GG account to install anything bought from GamersGate, even if you keep the install files. All of the GG installs contain an encrypted launcher or setup file that is de-encrypted once you enter in your GG account info and then re-encrypted after the game is installed, even if you don't delete the install files. Like ERISS said, it can be pretty easily bypassed, but without this hack, it would be considered a light form of DRM.

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:10 am
by gekkoguy82
DaiMonPaul wrote:You still need to log into your GG account to install anything bought from GamersGate, even if you keep the install files. All of the GG installs contain an encrypted launcher or setup file that is de-encrypted once you enter in your GG account info and then re-encrypted after the game is installed, even if you don't delete the install files. Like ERISS said, it can be pretty easily bypassed, but without this hack, it would be considered a light form of DRM.


You're quite right, my apologies. :(

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:27 am
by ERISS
Yes, I think hacking Gamersgate is legal here, for Gamersgate tell they are not DRM: Hacking them is to make the deal good, for what you have paid. That's the Gg fault for they try to cheat us with their false definition of DRM.

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:36 am
by Jarkko
I would be still a bit careful about advicing hacking (even if it is trivial) games in an official gaming company forum but which is open for anybody to read.

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:25 pm
by vaalen
Jarkko wrote:I would be still a bit careful about advicing hacking (even if it is trivial) games in an official gaming company forum but which is open for anybody to read.


I agree.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:10 am
by Pocus
I'm surprised about the claim that 95% of CK2 where bought from Steam, can someone point me on the statement? That would mean GG is suffering horribly from Steam. No judgement here, again.

I also read in the official Paradox thread something about 'season pass'. Might be the next model. Do not pay to play a game, pay to have access x months to the games of a company. In this advent, being Steam-only makes even more sense.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am
by ERISS
Pocus wrote:I'm surprised about the claim that 95% of CK2 where bought from Steam, can someone point me on the statement? That would mean GG is suffering horribly from Steam. No judgement here, again.

Steam players are
. those who care about DRMs, so they rent the Steam games very cheap only,
. and those who don't care about DRMs and so don't care about games and so don't care about devs and then buy very cheap only.
. a minority for they are far from retailers and must buy and play online
If they all are numerous enough, it can make some money in the end.. (mainly for Gabbe)

As soon you begin to sell something exclusive on Steam, many non-Steam consumer will stop buying all your games even those non-Steam, for you no longer prove your games, even those already bought, will be hard-drm-less in the future.

I also read in the official Paradox thread something about 'season pass'. Might be the next model. Do not pay to play a game, pay to have access x months to the games of a company. In this advent, being Steam-only makes even more sense.

Paradox games may be sold on Steam but without the DRM for now, but like for BloodBowl (which already had Securom*) it will be easy for them to add the steam-drm back through an expansion.
So, once the pass is on, it should be enforced by a special feature of Steam DRM, even on the games initially bought Steam-drm-less.

* Securom: Why I didn't bought first BB, then bought LegendEd for 10€ only, then bought ChaosEd for 10€ (what they don't want to reinbourse me). So at now I 'only' lost 20€ for I will no longer play BloodBowl as it has become incomplete with the release of ChaosEd that I can't play.
Focus Team = Faux-culs Steam (french 'fake-ass' = hypocrytes)

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:30 pm
by vaalen
Pocus wrote:I'm surprised about the claim that 95% of CK2 where bought from Steam, can someone point me on the statement? That would mean GG is suffering horribly from Steam. No judgement here, again.

I also read in the official Paradox thread something about 'season pass'. Might be the next model. Do not pay to play a game, pay to have access x months to the games of a company. In this advent, being Steam-only makes even more sense.


I wonder if this season pass is the wave of the future. I also wonder if steam will someday impose monthly fees to use steam, even for games that you have "purchased". The Steam Subscriber Agreement appears to give them the right to do so, at their option, if I have read it correctly. So far they have not done so. But once they have a monopoly, will they?

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:03 pm
by bob.
No, they won't. If they did that, the customers would be away in a week. Steam only got so far because at first they were the only ones and since then they consistently provide the best service of any distribution platform around. (I am not a huge Steam fan, I prefer sites like Gamersgate and GoG.com but you can't deny that they have the best service)

And about season passes, I think you misunderstood that. Season passes are meant in terms of a DLC season pass where you buy it and then you know "I get all DLC that is released for this product for a season". But it does NOT mean that anything will be taken away from you anytime. You will always have the game and the DLC from the season pass.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:28 pm
by Baris
bob. wrote:No, they won't. If they did that, the customers would be away in a week. Steam only got so far because at first they were the only ones and since then they consistently provide the best service of any distribution platform around. (I am not a huge Steam fan, I prefer sites like Gamersgate and GoG.com but you can't deny that they have the best service)

And about season passes, I think you misunderstood that. Season passes are meant in terms of a DLC season pass where you buy it and then you know "I get all DLC that is released for this product for a season". But it does NOT mean that anything will be taken away from you anytime. You will always have the game and the DLC from the season pass.


Yes definitely,

In addition steam games can be played offline after log in account. in for ex: uplay you have to be constantly online its much worse with long synchronize in out of the game.
In the end it is all about good pricing for costumer and popularity of sale platform that devs can have much wider audience.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:40 pm
by vaalen
Bob and Baris, thank you for your input. I hope you are correct.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:18 pm
by gekkoguy82
The 95% figure seems fishy to me...it seems to me an awful lot of folks picked up CK2 on GG, myself included. From what I remember during the development process, there was a great deal of consternation from a lot of people about the possibility of it being released Steam only (as there always is with Steam-related pro/con discussions) and as a result ended up being released through other outlets in addition to Steam..It was also noted that future games after CK2 would be released Steam only. I suppose that since I can't recall specific forum discussions, my experience is sort of anecdotal to everyone, but I know for certain that I remember reading about this stuff.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 pm
by Boomer
Let's face it, the gaming industry is going online all the time. What in the past few years was clearly delineated as single or multiplayer, now gaming is going all multiplayer with singleplayer components.

The new Sim City coming up... online. The Arma series, now going online with Steam. Mass Effect... Origin, Paradox games, Steam. Ubisoft games, Uplay. I could go on and on and on. Just getting games installed at all these days without them asking for online activation/registration/patching is becoming impossible. For whatever reason, the great minds who create.... er, manipulate and coerce, the industry have decided it would make more sense to go in that direction. Adapt or die, Get online or go home, sign up or be left out in the cold. This isn't a Luddite's fears, it's the way this little portion of society is trending. We help it with our dollars. We ask for our own chains.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:01 pm
by StephenT
gekkoguy82 wrote:The 95% figure seems fishy to me...it seems to me an awful lot of folks picked up CK2 on GG, myself included.
The figure came directly from Johan at Paradox; I can't provide a link because he said it a while ago, but it was in one of their forum threads about Steam. (Not an official announcement or anything like that: just a reply to another poster.)

Apparently a couple of years ago, 90% of their sales were through Steam, so they announced that Crusader Kings 2 would be Steam-only. There was uproar and outrage on the forums, people proclaimed they would never buy a single Paradox game ever again if they went steam exclusively. so Paradox backed down and produced CK2 in two versions: a Steam one and a non-Steam Gamersgate version.

Result? Their Steam sales went up to 95% of the total sales, and the Gamersgate version only sold about 5% of the total. Paradox concluded that the demand for a non-Steam version was just a small number of very loud people on their forums, not a mass movement.

Worse, they calculated that when you added up and costed the extra development time of making the non-Steam version, testing it and distributing it, they actually lost money on it. Dropping the non-Steam version, even if every one of the 5% who bought it refused to buy from Steam instead, would actually have made them more money. In practice, they assume that many of the people who bought from Gamersgate would buy through Steam anyway if that was the only option, and probably only around 2% of the total market are hardcore Steam-refuseniks. For markets as small and niche as the players of grand strategy games are, they decided that catering for the 2% is not economically viable.

The result of that is that March of the Eagles is Steam-only, and EU IV will be the same.

You can still buy MotE from Gamersgate, of course: it's currently fourth in their best sellers chart behind a new Sword of the Stars expansion, Crysis 3 and The Witcher 2. But all you get from Gamersgate is a code allowing you to download the game through your Steam client - plus their Blue Coins, experience points and other user account bennies.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:09 pm
by gekkoguy82
Ah, ok. Lamesauce. I'll probably still buy things through GG, since they do the coins and all that jazz. I'm a sucker I guess. :)

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:08 pm
by bob.
The way Paradox does it no one can complain as far as I'm concerned: Steam only BUT not using Steam as protection so you can just run the game.exe and/or copy the game folder whereever you want. That's how it should be!

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:11 am
by ERISS
StephenT wrote: they announced that Crusader Kings 2 would be Steam-only. There was uproar and outrage on the forums, people proclaimed they would never buy a single Paradox game ever again if they went steam exclusively. so Paradox backed down and produced CK2 in two versions: a Steam one and a non-Steam Gamersgate version.

Paradox should have stayed to their words: their customers "would never buy a single Paradox game ever again if they went steam exclusively", but even if not Steam exclusive, for they were already afraid by claim of Paradox and their already Steam games.
And when I saw Steam-only Paradox games on Gamersgate, I couldn't buy the non-Steam Paradox games on for I was too dispising.
A company should advert clearly that their games are DRM-free. If not, to make the more money, the company can directly put all their games on Steam and sell very cheap to the casual masses.
Steam has separated the games from the pc: there will be the console Steam, then GOG (some big, thank to Steam and other DRMs) as alternative true pc games, then many other smaller retailers. I'll say Steam is now 90% (sure at least 80%) of the pc market, GOG 5%, all the others in the 5% remaining. If the remain can survive, imagine how Gabbe should be rich...

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:29 am
by ERISS
Boomer wrote:Adapt or die, Get online or go home, sign up or be left out in the cold. This isn't a Luddite's fears, it's the way this little portion of society is trending. We help it with our dollars. We ask for our own chains.

I adapt. GOG is made by those who adapt and don't want to die. Resist, and brand pc games are already releasing again (like good old time) to us too.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:38 pm
by Jarkko
ERISS wrote:A company should advert clearly that their games are DRM-free.

Paradox has been very clear about that for a decade already. No Paradox developed games have DRM since EU2; EU2 was the last game with a DRM and the DRM was removed in patch 1.07 IIRC. You don't get any support from Paradox for their games if you don't register your game there, and you have to create a (fake) Steam account to download MotE or EU4, but hardly not even the most hard-core anti-DRMer can seriously claim those to be any issue.

Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:15 pm
by ERISS
Jarkko wrote: you have to create a (fake) Steam account to download MotE or EU4, but hardly not even the most hard-core anti-DRMer can seriously claim those to be any issue.

You mean for now only: See the BloodBowl case (I repeat) for the feared future. So hard-core anti-DRMers can't be confident in a Steam sold game.
Hard-core anti-DRMers buy only pc games on GOG and on DotEmu, and sometimes directly on dev independant sites (like Ageod, but some turn to Steam: see IronGrip WarLord and its Steam-only last expansion).

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:49 am
by Jarkko
ERISS wrote:You mean for now only: See the BloodBowl case (I repeat) for the feared future. So hard-core anti-DRMers can't be confident in a Steam sold game.

This is bull-poo and you know it. I can still play Blood Bowl just fine (did so last weekend in the league I am in) and I don't have BB in Steam. Sure, I don't have the Chaos Dwarf expansion, but that has been *entirely* your choice if you have chosen to install that. So please, cut the crap about Blood Bowl now being under Steam DRM, it is not and it is not possible to be made so unless *you* yourself choose to do so.

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:24 am
by loki100
ERISS wrote:And when I saw Steam-only Paradox games on Gamersgate, I couldn't buy the non-Steam Paradox games on for I was too dispising.
A company should advert clearly that their games are DRM-free.


Lets try for some clarity. Paradox games, ever since an early version of EU2 are DRM free and that is regardless of how the game gets onto your PC. I load up CK2 and I play it, I don't need to enter a code or anything. I don't particularly like Steam but you can make it very non-intrusive. Make sure it doesn't run on start up, turn off auto-patching and all it becomes is a tool to gain access to the game. I set up an account to play Warlock (fun and a return to the days when Civ was a simple clean game to play), I often play it when completely off line. The only way you can claim they have DRM is if you regard a minimal checking you have paid for the product as DRM.

If I buy EU4 (most likely), I'll buy via GG (I too am suspicious of monopolies in any distribution chain) and use my near dormant Steam account to download the game.

Going back to the 95% of CK2 sales via steam. What I think happened is that the regular frequent posters on the Paradox forum split more evenly between GG and Steam for the purchase than that figure would imply. But a combination of a fun, easy to play game that was pretty bug free on release, easily available on Steam drew in a mass of people who would never look at one of Paradox's traditional strategy games.

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:05 am
by ulysses
loki100 wrote:... Going back to the 95% of CK2 sales via steam. What I think happened is that the regular frequent posters on the Paradox forum split more evenly between GG and Steam for the purchase than that figure would imply. But a combination of a fun, easy to play game that was pretty bug free on release, easily available on Steam drew in a mass of people who would never look at one of Paradox's traditional strategy games.

This.

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:41 am
by ERISS
Jarkko wrote:I can still play Blood Bowl and I don't have BB in Steam. Sure, I don't have the Chaos Dwarf expansion

Yes I know: you can play the incomplete game (for content from ChaosEd is missing) without Steam.

Only AFTER that I purchased ChaosEd (through the direct purchase link Focus had invite me), it was said that I had to install Steam in order to install and play the game.

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:24 pm
by ERISS
(Interview of Distant Worlds director of development)
...
We greatly admire what Steam does but it's not a one size fits all world. That is not to say we would never look at this platform, but for us this is a case by case issue and to date we have not seen this case made out. Their business model very much favours mass market products and deep discounting. This is not necessarily the correct business model for our titles or our audience. The truth is that there is not much real data among other distributors for our sorts of products or our audience and to be frank we are arguably the best source of this data.

Additionally, we provide much greater support to our developers and where appropriate this can include financial support. In essence we enter into a full partnership with them and whilst increasing the number of units sold at extremely low prices might not affect us greatly it can often damage our developers and that would be a betrayal of their trust.
...

http://www.net4war.com/news.php?id_news=880

Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:26 pm
by Soulstrider
Some people seem to misunderstand what a season pass means.

Generally what they mean is that you get the game + all the future content, so for example the special edition of AJE with all the expansions included could be considered season passes.