tagwyn
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Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:47 pm

M: Unless you thank God, your prayer will be in vain, or, worse. t

tagwyn
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Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:51 pm

Queeg: I agree with your comments. I paticularly don't like Victoria. I want to be a poictical/military leader; not the head of the treasury department. t

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Jabberwock
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Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:52 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:Not sure if the other remark was directed at me or not, since I have no favorite strategy to use. Like Berto, I have yet to play a campaign game all the way thru, since I've been working to improve the AACW graphics and data files for over 15 months now. (rough guess 200 to 300 man-hours per month). I have also managed to "kill" a few non-historic gamey strategies with the cooperation of the discovering gamer. (Jabberwock being one of the discoverers). These are few and far between however, because again most of these cannot be solved by data changes alone, naval fort bombardment being just one of the examples.


And I thought it was directed at me. Just to clarify for the reading public in case it was, I don't usually make messes in my pants when my favorite gamey strategies get killed. ;)
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Jarkko
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Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:44 am

On internet discussion forums it is impossible to use some of the oratory techniques (such as varying intonation). In addition, I suck at humour (usually I start laughing when others are in awkward silence, and vice versa). Thus the only techinque at use for me is the generic focusing, ie to use words targeted at nobody but which should make as many as possible to feel to be the target, so that as many as possible in the audience would feel personal interest in the matter ;)



Don't we all love the ancient oratory techiques!? :wacko:
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Rafiki
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Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:56 pm

Jarkko wrote:In fact, I am starting to believe the zeal behind the attacks against my comments may in fact be based on that some key people would be crapping their pants if their favourite gamey strategy would suddenly be fixed. Not the first time I'd see that (I do remember for example when I used the "neighbour bonus" in a *very* gamey way in EU2; it was nerfed real good and then fixed to more reasonable levels for EU3, and it was apparent to me it was done as a personal attack on me :neener :) .

You are most likely pulling up too much of your past experiences when reading the comments you have received.

Also, it's been my impression that many of the reactions to your comments weren't dismissals and "attacks"; rather, more than a few took a step back to look at the larger picture; was it really unthinkable or were they capable of doing it? what would happen if they did? how would be the best way to represent it all in-game? etc.

As for people vehemently supporting their "favourite gamey tactic"; I haven't seen a ranking of such, but if I put the searchlight on Jabberwock for a moment, he has at least been fairly straight-forward in stating that he doesn't consider someone calling something "gamey" a good enough reason to not make use of it in-game or that eveything called "gamey" necessarily really is "gamey". At the same time, he has been the one to provide the most input and feedback in getting stuff that is clearly "gamey" addressed and fixed.
Jarkko wrote: In addition, I suck at humour (usually I start laughing when others are in awkward silence, and vice versa).

Well, you're Finnish; "humorously challenged" is a given.... ;) :niark:

In general, (and this is advice I humbly surmise anyone can take to heart), I recommend avoiding blanket statements when you don't have good reason too and also make sure that if you're writing something "to" someone, you make it clear enough who it's for (and by extension who it isn't for ;) )

In short, play nice; argue the issues, not the people arguing them :thumbsup:
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Pocus
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Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:18 pm

Smileys are not just cute little graphics without clear purpose, used to spam posts you know?

(and this is a 'generic focus assertion')
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Jarkko
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Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:18 pm

Rafiki wrote:I recommend avoiding blanket statements when you don't have good reason too and also make sure that if you're writing something "to" someone, you make it clear enough who it's for

Errr.... Was this targeted at/to me?



;)
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Jabberwock
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Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:35 am

I suck at humour


Errr.... Was this targeted at/to me? ;)


I laughed, does that mean I have a Finnish sense of humor?
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Jarkko
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Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:39 am

Jabberwock wrote:I laughed, does that mean I have a Finnish sense of humor?


Perhaps you have some Finnish ancestors? :D
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Rafiki
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Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:09 am

Jarkko wrote:Errr.... Was this targeted at/to me?



;)

Oh, so you did see what I did there :D



;)
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Comtedemeighan
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Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:00 pm

Paradox as a design house 'Jumped the Shark' with the release of Europa Universalis III. Now they release a game with many addons instead of a complete game basically all at once. I still visit there forums but alas I will never buy another paradox game. I also notice there forum community has become very vulgar there is alot of swearing on their forums now I don't mind swearing but I never saw it in the old days when the paradox forum community was much smaller. Also I like that Ageod just sticks to the games and doesn't have silly political threads like in the paradox OT were all here because war computer games are our hobby not because of our political viewpoints that's whats refreshing about the Ageod forums. Also Paradox's 3d units and maps are just plain ugly I don't like this new design of there games its just terrible. Ageod games are works of art compared to paradox's latest work. I think Paradox has forgot what made them great in the first place and now they only care about the $$$ I know the money is what keeps a game company alive, hopefully Ageod will be around for a long time because they are on of the few companies still releasing quality products I wish this company great success and hopefully when they become a big company like paradox they won't forget what made them great in the first place :)

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Jayavarman
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Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:29 pm

Comtedemeighan wrote:Paradox as a design house 'Jumped the Shark' with the release of Europa Universalis III. Now they release a game with many addons instead of a complete game basically all at once. I still visit there forums but alas I will never buy another paradox game. I also notice there forum community has become very vulgar there is alot of swearing on their forums now I don't mind swearing but I never saw it in the old days when the paradox forum community was much smaller. Also I like that Ageod just sticks to the games and doesn't have silly political threads like in the paradox OT were all here because war computer games are our hobby not because of our political viewpoints that's whats refreshing about the Ageod forums. Also Paradox's 3d units and maps are just plain ugly I don't like this new design of there games its just terrible. Ageod games are works of art compared to paradox's latest work. I think Paradox has forgot what made them great in the first place and now they only care about the $$$ I know the money is what keeps a game company alive, hopefully Ageod will be around for a long time because they are on of the few companies still releasing quality products I wish this company great success and hopefully when they become a big company like paradox they won't forget what made them great in the first place :)

BoA 2 was supposed to be an addon to BoA1.
Paradox used to make complete games? We begged Johan to expand EU2. Now we get that extra development.
Swearing? OT or game forums?
Obviously 3D is going to look bad on the first go. Rome has improved on the 3D.
Quality products? Check out the forum for AGEod's WW1.

Now, I am a fanboy of both companies, but just relax a bit. ;)

And check out this mod for EU3:

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"Sad fragility of human things! What riches and treasures of art will remain forever buried beneath these ruins; how many distinguished men - artists, sovereigns, and warriors - are now forgotten!"

"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."

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Comtedemeighan
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Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:40 pm

now that is a nice map :)

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Clovis
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Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:35 pm

Jayavarman wrote:BoA 2 was supposed to be an addon to BoA1.
Paradox used to make complete games? We begged Johan to expand EU2. Now we get that extra development.
Swearing? OT or game forums?
Obviously 3D is going to look bad on the first go. Rome has improved on the 3D.
Quality products? Check out the forum for AGEod's WW1.

Now, I am a fanboy of both companies, but just relax a bit. ;)



I agree commercial necessities to be the same for any company. Where Paradox has really lost credit for my own is with his real unability to create real new set of rules. Let's face it: beyond the Ph. Thibault's work at start, Paradox has been unable to really design a new game system ( as far I know, CK is built on Thibault's ideas). Roma is just EUIII in Ancient world, Victoria is the best example of the computer wargaming plague ( I got a ton of economical spreadsheets, lets's now build a game interface around), the EUIII sandbox system has been amended by add-on as it was impossible in the long run to sutain this game to be a simulation of an historical period with so much distorted results)... I will look at Paradox again the day this company will produce a game not region based, not in real time and with some new concepts..
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Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:00 pm

EU3 introduced me to modding, history, programming, life, women. If Ageod can top that then we shall see... ;)

Nice to see some old faces.

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arsan
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Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:14 pm

comagoosie wrote:EU3 introduced me to modding, history, programming, life, women. If Ageod can top that then we shall see... ;)

:blink:
Could you elaborate about it (specially about the part in bold letters ;) :D )

Myself, i just got the EU3 Complete edition a couple of weeks ago and i haven't progressed pass the tutorials still (by the way, the tutorials on the Complete edition are broken and cause frequent CTD :bonk :) .
First thing i did after launching the game was closing it and look for a graphical mod on the Paradox forus. :D
The vanilla map is unbearable, specially after being accustomed to AGEOD high standards. :coeurs:
Luckily, there are some great mods for the map like the one posted above or my favorite, the classy TOT mod (Theatrum Orbis Terrarum) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359352

Now, i just need soem time to learn to play and forge my old EU2 dog tricks :wacko:

Regards

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Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:18 am

Arsan: I am your friend! I am sorry to see you about to waste time and money on a Paradox product. Sadness. t

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arsan
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:26 am

Don't be so radical Tag! :neener: :)
I don't like some of the company politics of Paradox (all that patch-expansions thing) but they have give me some of the most enjoyable time i have spent playing computer games.
EU1 and EU2 are absolte classics IMHO. And i have played them for years!
And i have enjoyed HOI2 a lot even if it's not perfect.
One of the best assets of Paradox is their huge and excellent modding community, that usually improve their vanilla games greately! :coeurs:

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Jarkko
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:56 am

Clovis wrote:Where Paradox has really lost credit for my own is with his real unability to create real new set of rules. Let's face it: beyond the Ph. Thibault's work at start, Paradox has been unable to really design a new game system ( as far I know, CK is built on Thibault's ideas). Roma is just EUIII in Ancient world, Victoria is the best example of the computer wargaming plague ( I got a ton of economical spreadsheets, lets's now build a game interface around), the EUIII sandbox system has been amended by add-on as it was impossible in the long run to sutain this game to be a simulation of an historical period with so much distorted results)...

You conveniently forgot Hearts of Iron. If I remember correctly, I think Johan at some point said the sales of all the other Paradox games together are peanuts compared with HoI2 sales alone. I believe HoI series for Paradox is the bread&butter series, and the other games are more or less products of love and interest in the time-period. If they indeed are such projects of love, and as we all know, everybody will never be happy with all love-affairs ;)

I also find it funny how you Clovis bash EU3 for non-historical outcomes. EU3 at least promotes historical strategies, unlike for example AACW :) Personally if I'd want games to play out exactly as history, I wouldn't play the games but read a book instead. I use the words "historical game" for games that at least promote some historical strategies; a pretty map and a historical set-up does not a historical game make (look at De Bellis Multitudinis for an example -> no map, no set-up, total fantasy opponents in some cases, yet the game feels very very historically accurate). And yet, I play fantasy games too (Dominions series for example :) ), because I like good games that provide some exercise for the grey cells in my brain :)

Then again, I am quite impressed with the work AACW is going through. There seems to be a genuine interest to make the game actually somewhat historical, and I can't but applaud at that! The planned changes are baby-steps, but they seem to me to definitively be in the right direction :)
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Pocus
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:31 am

I'm currently playing EU3 with the Magna Mundi mod (XMas release), and I find the game rather interesting to play... Now if someone can tell me how to finance these costly universities, I would appreciate ;)
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arsan
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:02 am

Pocus wrote: Now if someone can tell me how to finance these costly universities, I would appreciate ;)


Can't you create a ton of post-grade courses with absurdly expensive inscription cost??? ;)
That's how its done around here i have heard... :neener:

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aryaman
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:36 am

Jarkko wrote:. I use the words "historical game" for games that at least promote some historical strategies; a pretty map and a historical set-up does not a historical game make

I have been always a defender of that proposition, that historical detail is less important in a game than rewarding historical strategies. That should consider mainly how the game plays. I remember that when I designed my first TOAW scenario units had their historical TOEs almost to a truck, then I realized that giving an Inf Div his historical truck complement made it in the game a motorised Div!

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Adlertag
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:39 am

I think events are the key to maintain some historicity especially games with the scope like EUIII, HoI2 or the incoming VGN.
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Franciscus
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:13 pm

Interesting discussion, but I think that the arguments have a fundamental flaw. I believe it is intrinsically impossible to play "competitively" (ie, to win) and historically. Against the AI sooner or later one can allways find some "gamey" way to defeat her, and against another human, almost allways the motivation is to win at all costs, so, historical plausible strategies are the least concern of all (that's why I do not play PBEM, BTW). Personally I play strategy "historical" games against the AI and I do not necessarily play to win but almost allways instead to explore history (and alternate history). But to each it's own, of course :)

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Athena
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:43 pm

This is a very wise remark!

comagoosie
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:02 pm

Athena wrote:This is a very wise remark!

:w00t:

who are you?! :love:

I...I...I that the scales are tipping more in the favor of Ageod now...

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berto
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:48 pm

Franciscus wrote:Interesting discussion, but I think that the arguments have a fundamental flaw. I believe it is intrinsically impossible to play "competitively" (ie, to win) and historically. Against the AI sooner or later one can allways find some "gamey" way to defeat her, and against another human, almost allways the motivation is to win at all costs, so, historical plausible strategies are the least concern of all (that's why I do not play PBEM, BTW). Personally I play strategy "historical" games against the AI and I do not necessarily play to win but almost allways instead to explore history (and alternate history). But to each it's own, of course :)


+1 :thumbsup:

(I have other reasons to shun PBEM, but the reason you cite is a good one.)

I'll go so far as to say that, if I see the AI pursuing an ahistorical or inept strategy, I'll play hot-seat solitaire (when a game permits it; EU3 does not, of course). In fact, I have played my last half dozen AGEod games in this fashion, and hot-seat solitaire is becoming my preferred mode of play. (Sorry, Athena.)
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Franciscus
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:05 pm

Just to clarify, that's not my only reason to shun PBEM, the other being a complete and utter lack of dependable free time to dedicate to and acomodate other players. But I really do not have the motivation to try and find available time... :D

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berto
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:18 pm

Franciscus wrote:Just to clarify, that's not my only reason to shun PBEM, the other being a complete and utter lack of dependable free time to dedicate to and acomodate other players. But I really do not have the motivation to try and find available time... :D


My corollary to that (lack of free time), and the biggest reason among several why I won't play PBEM: My life is such that, the press of other events can prevent me from doing any war gaming at all for weeks and weeks. I don't ever want to feel guilty because I am keeping a fellow PBEMer waiting. These games are supposed to be fun. I don't ever want them to become obligations. Got too many of those. :bonk:
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Ayeshteni
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Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:24 pm

tagwyn wrote:Arsan: I am your friend! I am sorry to see you about to waste time and money on a Paradox product. Sadness. t


Some good points by Jayavarman.

There are two ways you can go: The determinist route, beloved by some here and the non-determinist (sandbox) route, which Paradox has decided to go.

A bit of both is the best way.

A complete non-determinist route like vanilla EU3 (without In Nominee) is a complete bore. Its a generic coloured blob against other coloured blobs.

A 'historic' determinist route (like the traincrash that is AGCEEP for EU2) is an absolute frustrating nightmare.

If I am playing Scotland, I don't want to be humped by England, I want to cow them and keep my independence. I want to be able to successfully colonise Canada (even though it will be difficult), I want to help France gain the throne of England in a reverse hundred years war.

If I want absolute historical accuracy I will watch a video of the game being run 'historically' because there is no way I can interact without changing the historical perameters. What if I as Austria ally with the Ottoman Empire and look East to dominate the slavs?

The historical way will end up with glaring anachronisms and inconsitencies. I may get an event as England 'War with France' as Louis XIV's grandson inherits the Spanish throne, even if most of France is owned by England and Burgundy, who miraculously survived the 1470's when the duke Charles survived the Siege of Nancy even when they were not at war (a necessary trigger condition by the way for the Burgundy screwed event) and Spain is a tiny rump humped by the mega-Portugal and the Med-spanning Aragon.

No.

a mix of the two is the best option. Have events that highlight what happened historically (though not necessarily railroading you in a manner which is counter-intuitive to your ongoing game)

I want a game set in the period and with the full flavour of the period and a gameplay which is indicative of the period, but I want a game I can play, not a game that railroads me and forces me to do things I do not want to do, because thats what happened.

That is a straightjacket. Being constricted is not fun.

I do not want a game that is so generic, that you could rename all the countries or participants to characters from Lord of the Rings and it would have absolutely no difference to the game either.

That is boring.

Ayeshteni
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