Trouble?

[tagwyn]

I foresee food prices/availability becoming an increasing problem throughout the world. Is this linked to oil prices? Ethanol production? People will become agressive if their way of living is threatened. What is it like in your "neck of the woods?" apy:

[Adlertag]

Bioethanol production could effectively lead to serious problem if not managed rigorously.
Think that a single 4x4 car will consume 220 kg of corn to have its tank filled with bioethanol carburant. Those 220 kg which represent a significant amount some people won't have as food.

[lodilefty]

Bioethanol production could effectively lead to serious problem if not managed rigorously.
Think that a single 4x4 car will consume 220 kg of corn to have its tank filled with bioethanol carburant. Those 220 kg which represent a significant amount some people won't have as food.

...and how much fuel is burned to plant, harvest and process the bio-fuel?

Is bio-fuel even 'energy positive'? ...let alone 'carbon positive'?

IMHO it's a ploy to encourage the masses to think that something is being done to allieviate the control of the oil monopoly....

[tagwyn]

I agree with Lodliefty and Aldertag. This is cutting off the nose to spite the face. Bad policy. T

[Jabberwock]

IMHO it's a ploy to encourage the masses to think that something is being done to allieviate the control of the oil monopoly....

... and to keep Iowa primary voters fat and happy.

[Sol Invictus]

Completely agree. Corn based bioethanol is just the latest boondogle nightmare that Washington has latched onto and is spreading inflation throughout the economy. I have little faith that Washington can produce any solutions to any major problems that the US faces. Something has to give. leure:

[Adlertag]

And the reign of Monsanto will never end...

[Eoghammer]

It is clear that bio-energy can't be "cultivated" for the only goal to produce energy... for the moment.
corn, wheat,... used totally to produce energy is actually in a vast majority of the case a carbon producing process as they need fertilizer, transportation, mechanized power,... in order to grow up and to reach the plant where they will be often partially converted in "green"-oil.
the only ways that may be correct are the few wood- or bio-waste process if the recycle plant is really near the waste producing plant.
there is a few projected seaweed-based process that can also be correct.

And nearly all the correct process can't lead to a fuel usable by non electrical-cars as the ratio of conversion of the energy contained in the bio-material into a fuel combined to the efficiency of the car's engine represent a total waste of the bio-material.

(from wikipedia)
[INDENT]The efficiency of various types of internal combustion engines varies, but it is nearly always lower than electric motor energy efficiency. Most gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines, even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, have a mechanical efficiency of about 20% when Electric motors often achieve 90% energy conversion efficiency over the full range of speeds and power output
[/INDENT]

[Kotik]

Well here in Sweden farmers have finally stopped complaining about they dont earn very much money on farming. The forrest industry is hoping that we manage to get the techonlogy for producing ethonol from wood right.

People in general just want the government to lower taxes or even better to subsidize fossile fuel so the fuel cost get lower, using ecofuel or ecocars is something strange to the general population. Enviromental friends just hope that the government will increase the taxes on fuel so that more people will use our very well built public masstransit systems, well very well built in cities and larger towns.

I can only see the solution that we finally manage to get the hydrogen fuel cell to work in cars to a satisfactory level then we can start to get out of the fossile fuel grip.

[Primasprit]

[...]I can only see the solution that we finally manage to get the hydrogen fuel cell to work in cars to a satisfactory level then we can start to get out of the fossile fuel grip.

But the production of the needed hydrogen and oxygen needs a lot of energy too. Most energy (by far) worldwide is produced from Oil, Gas, Coal. So the fuel cell would not change much on the overall situation imho.

[Jabberwock]

But the production of the needed hydrogen and oxygen needs a lot of energy too. Most energy (by far) worldwide is produced from Oil, Gas, Coal. So the fuel cell would not change much on the overall situation imho.

I know one guy (with an engineering degree and a large property) who has a neat setup he uses to power his house and farm. There are six components -small windmill, wind-turbine, cistern, hydrogen tank, electrolysis machine, hydrogen-powered generator. Depending on whether or not the wind is blowing, electricity is provided by the turbine or the generator. The turbine also runs the electrolysis machine to create the hydrogen.

He told me he built the whole thing with help from some neighbors for about $3000 (1980s $) but he hasn't paid an electric or water bill in 25 years, and it is completely green. Imagine the possibilities ...

[Eoghammer]

This is sure that in rural aera peoples can have enough space to have their energetical independancy. This is not the case in cities.
For transportation, hydrogen may be a solution but the only viable way to obtain it is the electrolyse of water. Beside this possible solution, the only other way is electricity. The actual solution of a mix of bioethanol and the old dirty fossile fuel is just a way found by the automobile and oil lobby to avoid the emergence of electrical car a few year's ago.
Electrical cars requires a modification of the transportation model. Truck's cargo need to be moved by train for at least 90 % of the distance as well as long distance passenger travels.

[Jabberwock]

Good point about trains. We've been very stupid about trains (not using them for much) in this country for a long time.

[heckler_rider]

Whats the incentive for Politicians to push for alternative fuels?

Record profits in the oil industry lead to record donations to their campaign coffers!

[Kotik]

But the production of the needed hydrogen and oxygen needs a lot of energy too. Most energy (by far) worldwide is produced from Oil, Gas, Coal. So the fuel cell would not change much on the overall situation imho.

Well one engery source that is still largrly unused is geothermal power, yes most geothermal energy can only be used to heat up houses but if we really want to we can get enough enrgy to produce electricity, it is only a matter of money and will.

Some areas have easier access to geothermal energy that you can produce eletricity but Im quite sure that just geothermal heating can reduce much dependency on oil, gas and coal during the most energy demanding seasons.