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marek1978
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Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:36 pm

I love the new patch and i am happy you guys changed Polish -Lithuanian and Hungarian infrantry in to old style musketiers

Yet a very small question.

Russian mustetiers transform in to modern step by step - with Peter rules event.

What happens with Polish - Lithuanian and Hungarian ones - do they go through similiar proces on the way?

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PhilThib
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:40 pm

No, the guys could not identify some specific events for those. So for now they upgrade by training and experience.
Another solution they plan is to create an option to upgrade them, a bit like Peter's

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marek1978
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:08 pm

PhilThib wrote:No, the guys could not identify some specific events for those. So for now they upgrade by training and experience.
Another solution they plan is to create an option to upgrade them, a bit like Peter's



Well it is hard for me to tell how was it with Hungarian.

With Poles - Lithuania i base on seweral books - especially Jan Wimmer ones

http://lubimyczytac.pl/ksiazka/294237/h ... -roku-1864


polish authors state that initial defeats and swedish invasion trigered reforms of the army.

Swedes enetered Poland in 1701. In 1702 they destryeyed Saxon army in Kliszow

In that battle Swedish infrantry using flintlocks decimated polish Hussars - causing shock among Sobieski weterans...

It triggerd Sejm ( parliament ) to vote increase size of the army and its reforms (in 1703) speeding up proces that was happening but very slowly

Sexon general Flemming ( who got polonized) and hetman Sieniawski began implementeation of modern flintlocks, trainig and clothes. Saxon miliary drill was intrdiced. ( by the way - many saxon regimnts were recruited in Poland so there was quite a lot of avaible people with proper training)

In 1706 Hetman Sieniawski ( who was main commander) issued order finnaly banning muskets and requring that every unit should use flintlock with baynets.

By 1708 infrantry and dragoons were mostly equiped , dressed and trained in modern way ( flintlocks, bayonets, tricorns)


in a game terms i think that one can create event - When sweden enter Poland and capture Vilnius or Warsaw polish army upgrade is trigered - Player need to pay EP and money and polish inhranty units and dragoons units began slow tranformation.


If Sweded do not invade Poland such an event should be possible bit later on.

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PhilThib
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:32 pm

Nice ideas indeed...

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marek1978
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:01 pm

PhilThib wrote:Nice ideas indeed...


well i just bought 3 more books about it but i promise not to share to much of this in that forum


anyway, i would love at some point to see some games that would inwolwing more of internal politics and economy.
Bit like PON.
It would be great to struggle with reforming Poland - Lithuania while navigating it thorugh Great Northern War or to manage spanish admistration or turkish empire and its economy.

There were so many interesting European turning points where miliatary/diplomacy and economy were mixing.

packing them in to games that would be not about centruries but about specific shorter time periods would be great

something like 1859-1870, or 1908-1918, or 1667-1715



but i gues it is imposible...

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Liberty Bell
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:40 pm

Thanks for the link Marek.

I am very interested to know more about Polish -Lithuanian army in GNW. It is hard to find OOBs or even find pictures that shows how they looked like in that period. :confused:

Two questions.

Was it any major differences between nationality? Was Polish and Lithuanian troops simular like for example the Swedish and Finnish.

There seems to be a good variety of cavalry. I am thinking of, Husaria, Pancerni, Petyhorcy, Jazda, Rajtaria, Dragonia, etc... There was also cavalry of other origin like, Tatarzy, Kozacy and so on. Maybe it could be a good idea for the game to "polish polish" cavalry?
:dada:

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marek1978
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:42 pm

well it is long long story

hard to make it short but:

-Polish-Lithuanian military went in to decline in late XVII century reaching bottom in mid - XVIII century

-crisis of the army was caused by general crisis of the state which was unnable to reform its political structure and step by step become paralized. There were several attempts to reform the country - thorugh out that period - yet they all mostly failed. they were finnaly succefull in late XVIII century yet they came to late . Generaly in late XVII century and early XVIII army was hevily underpaid - soldiers had to focus on executing debts from the state

-During GNW Polish - Lithuanian army was paralized by adtional factors - first by the fact that innitialy most of the army/politiucal leaders were opposing war against Sweden ( which they saw as private initive of the king and favoured peace, or ewen war with |Russia), second by the ciwil war

As for army tactis/uniforms/structure. Taking in to consideration all the things i stated abowe i will give you few facts.

Around 1700 polish army had around 40 000 soldiers

half of them were infrantry. Infrantry units were organizes in to small regiments, ( around 400/700 ) soldiers. these units were funtining as battalions on the battlefield. Such an organistion was intrudced by king Sobieski around 1670.
Polish infrantry was always using relaitvly small number of pikes as it never really needed protction against cavalery. Pikeman were 10/20 percent of every unit.
Musketers were using long double axes instead of a forket. Uniforms were blue.

Around 1690 intruction of flintlock was initited. But becuase of the lack of funds it was finishisd around 1706/1708


Regiments were mostly named after their commander ( just like in wester europe). Best units had their orginal name.

-Gwardia Piesza Koronna ( Polish Foot Guard - as Korona means Kingdom and word Kingdom was used to describe polish part of commonwelth)
-Gwardia Piesza Litweska ( Lithuanian Foot Guard)

Regiment of the Queen
Regiment of the Prince

and so on.


there was as well number of light infrantry units named hajduks, or hungarian infrantry. those units were not hiving pikes, and no axes and were used as fast sumplement for cavalary

what is interesting there were as well a small number of turkish style infrantry - dressed in a simmiliar way to jannisaries and not using pikes and axes

light infrantry were organised in smaller units - around 200 people

As for calavalery - around 1700 it numbered around 20 000

Since Sobieski there was increasing number of dragon units, they consisted around half of cavalalery. It was using similiar structure as Infrantry - organised in small regiments. It was weraing blue uniforms. And was very similiar to the french dragons

Rest of cavalary was recruited using so called "commarads recriutmed" - meaning that a member of gentry was issued a letter to recruit number of people and was organised in small units of 200 people being combined in to regimnts "pulk" named after their commanders.


main cavalery force was "pancerni" - meaning iron/metal ones. It was medium heavy cavalery, using small protection plates and short pike. sometimes rifle/muscet. and sabre ofcourse.
They were supported by light cavalery ( the joke was that name light reffers to the fact that it lighlty escape)

There was a very small number of heavy shock cavalery - Husarze - thopse guys were using long spear and had wing attacged to their backc ( they were suposed to protect them against tatar ropes)


and more over there were cossack units - combinin both of light infrantry and light cavalery.

And there were tattar units - as there was huge number of tatars who were settled in Poland-Lithuania.

King Sobieski who spoke turkish and tattar and had a very hight respect for muslim culture was inviting them to settle and serve in the army. (btw last tattar unit was still in service in 1939)



anyway as i wrote it is jus small part of fascinating history.

Polish-Lithuanian army was higly effective strong miliatry force for most part of its history. It fought nyumber of different enemies - very ofthe in the same time - Swedes, Austrians, Russians, Turks. It achivied fantastic victories in its historyy - capturing Moscow 2 times, giving a tought time to Gustaw Adolf in 1626-1628 or destroing turkish army under Vienna.

Yet in GNW it was just a shadow of its former glory - mostly because of the crisis of the country.


In opertion sense - it was organises as two main armies - Armia Koronna, and Armia Litewska.
They funtio as sepparete entities - as the country was federatiopn.
Ussualy Armia Koronna was twice as big as Armia Litewska.

For operation purposses armies were divided in to smaller entities. They were names Dywizja ( like division) with the name of the comander. For example - Lubomirski Dywizja, Czarniecki Dywizja and so on


as for pictures - i have some books in my country house, will look for them.

During GNW polish infrantry changed it traditional blue uniforms in to red ones with tricorns - coping saxon style














Liberty Bell wrote:Thanks for the link Marek.

I am very interested to know more about Polish -Lithuanian army in GNW. It is hard to find OOBs or even find pictures that shows how they looked like in that period. :confused:

Two questions.

Was it any major differences between nationality? Was Polish and Lithuanian troops simular like for example the Swedish and Finnish.

There seems to be a good variety of cavalry. I am thinking of, Husaria, Pancerni, Petyhorcy, Jazda, Rajtaria, Dragonia, etc ...
There was also cavalry of other origin like, Tatarzy, Kozacy and so on. Maybe it could be a good for the game to "polish polish" cavalry?

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Liberty Bell
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:47 pm

Marek, you gave an excellent summary and overview.
You should put it at Wikipedia as this information is so hard to find.

I now see that the new patch has "polish polish" army according to what you told.
That makes me happy, as what I love with this games, is that it try to be historically correct.
You can learn something and be interested to learn more.

Your summery made me more eager to know more about Polish history and
especially about the political and military situation at the GNW.

Thank you very much Marek
:hat:

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Herr Doctor
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:23 am

Very good suggestions, Marek. Just several remarks.

marek1978 wrote:Around 1690 intruction of flintlock was initited. But becuase of the lack of funds it was finishisd around 1706/1708

According to Tomasz Cieselski and some others authors the process of matchlock replacement with flintlock musket took much longer time. Realistically from 1703 and finished only in 1728. Most of the new flintlock firearms were Prussian models of 1701-1713, some Saxon and partly Swedish ones of 1699 (trophies mostly purchased from Russia). In game terms I think it would be better if only part of infantry troops would be represented as "modernised' later in game.

main cavalery force was "pancerni" - meaning iron/metal ones. It was medium heavy cavalery, using small protection plates and short pike. sometimes rifle/muscet. and sabre ofcourse.
They were supported by light cavalery ( the joke was that name light reffers to the fact that it lighlty escape)

and more over there were cossack units - combinin both of light infrantry and light cavalery.

And there were tattar units - as there was huge number of tatars who were settled in Poland-Lithuania.

I agree. Pancerni (also called Petyhoria for Lithuanian army) as chain mailed medium cavalry type, Ulhans and Vlachs as light cavalry, Lipka Tatar and Cossack units are missing and should be introduced really. I have a hope that they would be added to the Polish OOB properly.

In opertion sense - it was organises as two main armies - Armia Koronna, and Armia Litewska.
They funtio as sepparete entities - as the country was federatiopn.
Ussualy Armia Koronna was twice as big as Armia Litewska.

More like loosy confederation with two governments and armies. Actually the Crown (Polish) Army sometimes was three-four times bigger than Lithuanian. Mostly due to demographic differences of two parts of PLC.

During GNW polish infrantry changed it traditional blue uniforms in to red ones with tricorns - coping saxon style

This happened only in 1720s. As the result of 1717 reform they first received European style uniform but with funny hats.:)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_F4PLsaYfK94/T ... 1717+s.jpg

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marek1978
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Re: Polish/Hungarian/Russian Muscetters

Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Welll, playing Great Northern War as multiplayer woukd be great.
PLC- Saxony had quite different goals then Russians....

Genneraly it would be really great to see a game of diplomacy, economy and military set in XVII and XVIII century.
Something PON - Louis XIV eddition
:)

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