titanium
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Army Layout

Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:02 pm

I'm trying to optimize my army layout. What's the best way to organize my generals and units?

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This is how the stack starts out. Some more detail on the two generals.

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Which of these pair do I want to enable Group Command for? Or do I want Group Command enabled at all?

If I combine any combat units with Brunswick the Combat Power of the entire stack drops, sometimes a huge amount. Here he is paired with just a cuirassier.

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Our combat power was 737, but once he's paired up with the cuirassier it drops to 601.

So now let's compare Knyphausen. If we combine that same cuirassier we drop to 656.

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Then if we get crazy and fill up Knyphausen's stack we suddenly get back to 737.

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If we do the same with Brunswick we lose a huge amount of combat power.

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One would think I'd want Brunswick in Group Command since he has less Seniority and I'd leave Knyphausen as the stack command. But it doesn't seem to want to work like that.

What would be the best layout?

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Leibst
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Re: Army Layout

Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Brunswick should be in command, seniority value is higher as lower is the number, being 1 the top of seniority.
And Knyphasen to hold a Group, I use to add inside as many units as I can adding one artillery at least and one cavalry, the rest infantry.
Your stack was droppinf value possibly because creating a group of just one unit make the stack more costly in Command Points, as a group costs 4 CPs.

titanium
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Re: Army Layout

Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:54 pm

That makes sense! Thank you. Very helpful information.

So the cavalry being left out, for the most part, is assumed to operate independently then?

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arsan
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Re: Army Layout

Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:26 pm

Hi!
Enabling group command on a leader gives him a 1 turn penalty on it's offensive and defensive abilities (I think its minus 2 for each). That's the reason the stack power decreases.
But don't worry, it goes back to normal next turn. Just try to not get into battle the same turn you enable group command.

In your case I will make both leaders group commanders to avoid lack of command penalties and stuff them with as much infantry and cavalry you can (up to 18 elements including the leader).

If you have leaders to spare, I like to let the stack commander without group command as I read on a AGEOD engine combat guide that he gives higher bonus to the whole stack when alone that when leading both a stack and a group. But I'm not 100% sure if that .

In my opinion groups have three advantages:
1. they decrease command point cost.
2. Leaders give offensive and defensive bonus to the units inside the group according to its off and def abilities. And besides, they may help with their special abilities.
3. They help to protect units from destruction in battles, as hits are distributed across the group, instead of in just one unit. You don't want that your units to get completely destroyed as many of them are not reclutable again. Gone for good. :(


Because of point 3, personally I left arty out if the groups, as they are very rarely targeted in combat and don't get destroyed. Instead is important to put your 1 element cavalry in groups as they are easely destroyed.
Unless you use a cav unit on its own, for scouting or raiding , protect them inside groups or you will lose a lot in battles.

Regards!

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Durk
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Re: Army Layout

Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:51 am

arsan wrote:Because of point 3, personally I left arty out if the groups, as they are very rarely targeted in combat and don't get destroyed. Instead is important to put your 1 element cavalry in groups as they are easely destroyed.
Unless you use a cav unit on its own, for scouting or raiding , protect them inside groups or you will lose a lot in battles.
!


So is the bonus for having an artillery and a cavalry unit inside the army commander stack, but not included in a group formed under another leader not true in TYW as it is in other AGEOD titles?
I have been leaving one cavalry and one artillery only in the army, but if what you are saying about more risk for elimination, then it is not such a smart idea.

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arsan
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Re: Army Layout

Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:52 am

Hi Durk!

I have never heard about that special cav and art bonus you mention! Can you point me to some place where it's explained?

The only similar thing in aware of is that is nice to have at least a cav unit on each stack for the increased detection rating it gives to the whole stack. But for this the cav can be either alone or included on a group or division.

Regards!

Baris
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Re: Army Layout

Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:59 am

I think additional group leader bonus -besides stack commander bonus- more important for firing phase but I don't put art in a group. Mostly inf only and a cavalry. Cavalry could have more use in a group for the assault phase. When moving sometimes I detach art for faster moving to towns.

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Durk
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Re: Army Layout

Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:56 am

arsan wrote:Hi Durk!

I have never heard about that special cav and art bonus you mention! Can you point me to some place where it's explained?

The only similar thing in aware of is that is nice to have at least a cav unit on each stack for the increased detection rating it gives to the whole stack. But for this the cav can be either alone or included on a group or division.

Regards!


You know, arsan and all – I am not a technical player. Most of what I know about these kind of techniques for better play I learn from others. The inclusion of a cavalry unit and an artillery unit in the army but outside the brigade (ROP), division (most others) and group (TYW) is something I learned many years ago from OneArmedMexican. His AAR covered how to maximize play in the first version of RUS. If it is archived anywhere it would be over at the Paradox Forum. He had a deep understanding of the game and how it works. Incidentally, if his masterly AARs are still around they are well worth the time. Unfortunately, I cannot point you to the AAR as I no longer access the Paradox forum.

Since TYW is done on a different game engine this bit about a cavalry and an artillery unit may no longer be correct. That was actually the source of my question about whether or not this is still true.

I am not sure I agree there is a higher casualty rate for units not in a group. But in groups not numerically similar to other groups in the army there is definitely an uneven distribution of casualties.

Also, the unit derives leader benefit in a group, so worth considering.

Another consideration to which I do not have a correct answer – I have seen some forum members advocate leaving at least one spot open in any group as you attract replacement for weakened units more easily.

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arsan
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Re: Army Layout

Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:49 pm

Hi Durk!

I read OnearmedMexican excellent AAR back when I started playing RUS. But I don't recall that advice about having a lone arty and cav unit on armies.
Personally I find strange that kind of hidden bonus, not related with unit abilities or stats... It's not how things tend to work on AGEOD engine.
But I don't know for sure, honestly.

Regarding your last question, indeed if a group is up to 18 elements and some of the units inside are missing some element, they will not recover it as a group cannot go above 18 elements not matter what.
So it's better to make groups with full units or leave some room on the group for missing elements.

Regards!

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GuileMike
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Re: Army Layout

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:45 pm

So I have had this game a bit but finding time to play it. How many generals is it smart to have in a stack and then group under them? Is it similar to CWII with brigades?

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Durk
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Re: Army Layout

Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:48 am

It is actually very different from CWII as there are no subordinate corps. Otherwise, many similarities. Your first consideration is does your army have command penalties. It is helpful to have all of your units under a subordinate commander as they gain the commander's abilities and this reduces command penalties.

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GuileMike
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Re: Army Layout

Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:13 pm

ah neat! Thx for the info!

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