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gazfun
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Period of peace

Sun May 29, 2016 4:45 am

This should variable according to the war score also. The extra amount of time can be used to reduce an alliance block against you.

The standard peace period of the time was around 12 months and went higher.

If the amount of months that can be added to the low 6 months from the war score this can be a feature to stop a block of countries by eliminating them one by one. Unless someone has worked around this?
Any comments?

Nappy
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Tue May 31, 2016 12:19 am

As part of the peace offer, several diplomatic options should be included....

1. Timeframe...6 months minimum, with an adjustable scale to add more months.

2. Demand the loser to offer peace with allied minor nations, with a reduction in their demands based on your current warscore.

Example; France and it's allies Bavaria/Baden are fighting Prussia. Eventually, France can offer peace at, as an example, 150 warscore...But Prussia has a warscore against french allies equal to 50...Options should include Prussia offering peace to allies worth 50 warscore, and france gets the other bit.

Anyways, the main point...getting peace against a major nation is great, but, if it's still kicking your allies butt...what sense does that make?

veji1
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Tue May 31, 2016 8:42 am

Nappy wrote:As part of the peace offer, several diplomatic options should be included....

1. Timeframe...6 months minimum, with an adjustable scale to add more months.

2. Demand the loser to offer peace with allied minor nations, with a reduction in their demands based on your current warscore.

Example; France and it's allies Bavaria/Baden are fighting Prussia. Eventually, France can offer peace at, as an example, 150 warscore...But Prussia has a warscore against french allies equal to 50...Options should include Prussia offering peace to allies worth 50 warscore, and france gets the other bit.

Anyways, the main point...getting peace against a major nation is great, but, if it's still kicking your allies butt...what sense does that make?


That's because of an engine flaw where if a war preexists between a major and a minor part of an another alliance (say Prussia declared war on Bavaria) before the 2 majors are at war (France than DOWed Prussia based on the CB it got) the engine doesnt merge the first war into the second : the only war that matters is then between France and Prussia and only the majors should be able to sign peace together, to avoid wacky separate peaces. The only exception should be what Vicberg tried to enforce in his mod : that when a major occupies a minor with enough forces it annexes it (ideally it should create a "minor switches sides" event where the minor becomes an ally of that other major).

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Pocus
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Tue May 31, 2016 8:58 am

But this can be automatic as it depends of the relations between France and Bavaria. Perhaps they are even at war against each others. So extra tests required.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

veji1
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Tue May 31, 2016 11:12 am

Pocus wrote:But this can be automatic as it depends of the relations between France and Bavaria. Perhaps they are even at war against each others. So extra tests required.


I understand but it's mightily annoying : I have had it happen to me several times in vanilla (I have been playing Vicberg's mod for the last couple of weeks) since the April beta to still have the first 50 turns go that way (playing the august campaign):
- am at war with Asutria
- Prussia declares war on Wurtemberg or Bavaria
- I dow Prussia while finishing off Austria to get Pressburg
- I am at war with Prussia and Russia still, with Russian units coming through Austria so I have to leave a couple of corps in Bavaria.
- While i am in early 1806 deep into Prussia on my way to Danzig/Koenigsberg and Tilsit treaty, Austria dows Bavaria....
- So I now have to Dow Austria again....

This loop is silly, Austria should be forbidden to dow my allies in the duration of peace treaty with me. And separate peaces are annoying as hell. I once ended up with Prussia givinv Hambourg to Bavaria in a separate peace while I was trashing them because they had dowed my bavarian ally !

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Pocus
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Tue May 31, 2016 1:32 pm

Yes I understand the issue. This would need to think one level above, with 'sides'.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

veji1
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Tue May 31, 2016 1:41 pm

Pocus wrote:Yes I understand the issue. This would need to think one level above, with 'sides'.


O yes I can see how that could be something tricky to do. The thing is that to me this should be handled as soon as there is the original DOW : Prussia Dows Bavaria or Wurtemberg while I (France) am his ally, I should get a red message in the dialogue box a the beginning of the turn asking me to either support my ally and mechanically declare war to Prussia AND therefore absorbing that war into my bigger war with Prussia OR not supporting my ally and losing it as a member of my alliance.

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gazfun
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Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:04 am

veji1 wrote:I understand but it's mightily annoying : I have had it happen to me several times in vanilla (I have been playing Vicberg's mod for the last couple of weeks) since the April beta to still have the first 50 turns go that way (playing the august campaign):
- am at war with Asutria
- Prussia declares war on Wurtemberg or Bavaria
- I dow Prussia while finishing off Austria to get Pressburg
- I am at war with Prussia and Russia still, with Russian units coming through Austria so I have to leave a couple of corps in Bavaria.
- While i am in early 1806 deep into Prussia on my way to Danzig/Koenigsberg and Tilsit treaty, Austria dows Bavaria....
- So I now have to Dow Austria again....

This loop is silly, Austria should be forbidden to dow my allies in the duration of peace treaty with me. And separate peaces are annoying as hell. I once ended up with Prussia givinv Hambourg to Bavaria in a separate peace while I was trashing them because they had dowed my bavarian ally !

I agree with this needs sorting

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gazfun
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Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:05 am

also 6 month to leave a major power after peace has been settled, all he has to do is linger around in that same country and DOW again in the same 6 months

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Captain_Orso
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Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:53 pm

!!- Danger -!! Real-World-Argument™ approaching.

War is not an entity of and to itself. It is a declaration of one discreet nation on another. Although we think of wars as being some kind of tangible entity, it's not.

Generally, when multiple nations are simultaneously at war against one or more nations, they build a de facto alliance. Often resulting in two alliances waring against each other.

Generally alliances negotiate with each other to determine strategies and make agreements, such as how the war is to be conducted, and conditions for making peace.

When a war "ends" diplomatically, generally all waring nations sign the peace documents, which stipulate the conditions which end the war (payments: monetary or otherwise, transfer of sovereignty over a landmass, removal of persons and/or parties/groups from the government, etc., etc.).

Generally all parties of each alliance sign the treaty(ies) and end the war at the same time.

For all of there, there are numerous exceptions throughout history.

I don't think any game could really take all the possibilities between war and peace into account. Both are conducted by people, who can be irrational and unpredictable. Each person taking part in negotiations increases the possibilities of outcomes exponentially. Sometimes there are dozens, or even hundreds of negotiators handling the negotiations. This is why those "walk in the park" negotiations are often so fruitful.

So, what about WON?

I think, if one major faction is at war with another, and negotiates a peace with it, all of it's minor allies should be subject to the same peace.

There are however issues with this. The single major faction would have absolute power over its allies in negotiations. It would be a major change for one major power to negotiate for another minor, ie negotiate the minor getting reparations, or taking land, or what ever.

What about negotiations of multiple, aligned, major-powers?

And what of 2+ majors negotiating with 2+ other majors :blink:

I don't even want to press <Post> on this anymore. But maybe, if it gets others to think a little about what is really expected of the game, and what that entails, that would be a success. I'm not saying there are no valid points being made, only what the repercussions would be.
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Drake001
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Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:06 pm

I understand but it's mightily annoying : I have had it happen to me several times in vanilla (I have been playing Vicberg's mod for the last couple of weeks) since the April beta to still have the first 50 turns go that way (playing the august campaign):
- am at war with Asutria
- Prussia declares war on Wurtemberg or Bavaria
- I dow Prussia while finishing off Austria to get Pressburg
- I am at war with Prussia and Russia still, with Russian units coming through Austria so I have to leave a couple of corps in Bavaria.
- While i am in early 1806 deep into Prussia on my way to Danzig/Koenigsberg and Tilsit treaty, Austria dows Bavaria....
- So I now have to Dow Austria again....

This loop is silly, Austria should be forbidden to dow my allies in the duration of peace treaty with me. And separate peaces are annoying as hell. I once ended up with Prussia givinv Hambourg to Bavaria in a separate peace while I was trashing them because they had dowed my bavarian ally !


Plus one. This whole thing needs fixing.

Drake001
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Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:14 am

2 months following Pressburg, Austria declares war on Bavaria. So annoying.

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PhilThib
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Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:28 am

Can you post here a save?

We need the save of turn before Austria declares war to Bavaria + the turn with the actual war declaration.


The Pressburg event has a requirement that AI does not declare war to France, Bavaria and KOI for 2 years...

AUS AI.SetDiploItemBias FRA|*War*|0|*Peace*|200|*CB*|0|*Military*|0|*Supply*|0|*Passage*|0|*DipSupport*|0|*ExpForces*|0|*ExpFleets*|0
AUS AI.SetDiploItemBias BAV|*War*|0|*Peace*|200|*CB*|0|*Military*|0|*Supply*|0|*Passage*|0|*DipSupport*|0|*ExpForces*|0|*ExpFleets*|0
AUS AI.SetDiploItemBias KOI|*War*|0|*Peace*|200|*CB*|0|*Military*|0|*Supply*|0|*Passage*|0|*DipSupport*|0|*ExpForces*|0|*ExpFleets*|0


so either the event is bugged and does not work, or the AI does not care about event requirements

Thanks
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beuckelssen
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Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:08 pm

Drake001 wrote:Plus one. This whole thing needs fixing.



Totally agree. For me was so frustrating that stopped playing and even unistalled the game (so no saves). For me the diplomacy is the weakest point of the game at the moment.

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PhilThib
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Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:00 am

Understood, but unless we get saves to understand if there is an unplanned behavior, it's hard to fix. The issue does not occur here, and the event should, normally, lasts for 48 months...if the AI ignores it, we need to 'trace' why and without saves it's impossible.
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Pocus
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Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:52 am

We need the current and previous turn, so we can understand why the logic is faulty here. This is very important!
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Tyr
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Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:31 am

For Captain Orso, the main treaty that I have seen with multiple factors (i.e. a major negotiating settlements for minors) is Treaty of Schönbrunn. And this is the bigger issue with Austria and France/Bavaria. Frances gets Salzburg for Bavaria, Austria DOWs Bavaria a few turns later and reclaims Salzburg. Every game I have played thus far (3 of them to post Schönbrunn), Bavaria has never retained possession of Salzburg until I could return to war with Austria due to peace-lock.

I will point out: 1 - I play via Steam and am stuck with patch 1.02. I've used the autoinstaller for 1.03 and no luck. I have 4 separate folders in my PC it seems for WON. And the Steamapps folder (where the autoinstall directs to go) does not update to 1.03. 2 - I play all of my games with the Jan 1805 GC start, rather than August 1805. This is in case the issue is campaign specific.

I will have to start a new game, and see if I can work up to this point and get Pocus and PhilThib some save files. Also, I know the dev team is very busy working improving the game, but do you ever have time to actually play it and see some of the issues we are reporting first-hand? I know that is not always feasible, but you would get a clearer analysis.

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Captain_Orso
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Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:17 am

Question: After the Treaty of Schönbrunn, isn't France still allied (have a defensive treaty) with Bavaria? If it does, if Austria DOW's Bavaria, France should gain a CB against Austria, regardless of WhitePeace, I think. Well at least logically, but then again, the Treaty of Schönbrunn should give WhitePeace between Austria and Bavaria too, and not just Austria and France.

I'm not sure about the Steam installation, because I've never used it for WON, and don't actually have a Steam key.

When you say you have 4 separate folders for WON, where are they and what are their names?

Can you post your Saves from that last game where this occurred, with as many turns in Backupx folders as possible?
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Tyr
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Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:02 pm

I am going to have replay a GC to get back up to Schönbrunn. And yes, Bavaria is part of the French Alliance, just as they were prior to Pressburg.

Under Steam. I hae Steamapps/common/Wars of Napoleon. This is - allegedly - the main folder for WON within Steam. However, with that folder I have Matrix Games (which has a separate launcher) and NGC (which appears to have copies of all the files in Matrix Games). Furthermore, I have a matrix Games/WON folder in my Programs (x86) files.

I ran across WON on a Steam sale for 20% off, and purchased it because it looked fascinating. So I am stuck having to use Steam to access the game. Any attempt to use any of the other start ups gives a flag for serial code, but no way to enter a code. Not that it would matter since my code is hardcoded to Steam. Had I know I'd have such serious issues, and enjoy the game as much as I do, I'd have bought it direct and not had this BS.

vaalen
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Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:23 pm

In my game as France, latest beta patch, The Pressburg treaty seems to be working as intended.
It has been over six game months since the treaty was signed, and Austria has not attacked Bavaria, or France, or the Kingdom of Italy.

Maybe the new patch did something to resolve the problem.

Update. June 22.
I spoke too soon. Another four turns after my first post, Austria attacked Bavaria, and took Munchen. This is within the forty eight week period of supposed peace, so it is contrary to the event. However, Austria is still at peace with France and the kingdom of Italy.

Tyr
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Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:58 am

For Pocus, PhilThb, or Captain_Orso, I have a question regarding the necessary save file for Schönbrunn. Reading Vaalen's post, he mentions that Pressburg seems to be working for the new beta patch. I am trying to get back up to Schönbrunn so I can send the saves. However, I am still Steam locked with only the 1.02 patch; therefore my data does not account for the new beta 1.03. Will that still work for analysis? I am glad to send it when I get there again, just want to know if it will still help you find and cross-reference towards information in the new beta 1.03.

Thanks much gentlemen,
Tyr

Tyr
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Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:02 am

How do I add the save files, and how do I identify the save file that is needed for analysis? I have my current game, in 1805. Just signed Pressburg, and on the turn France goes to peace with Austria, Austria remains at war with Bavaria. The following turn, I get a CB on Austria as "They are attacking our ally Bavaria." As I said, I have the saves backed up, but the entire save file zip is too large.
Attachments
Backup3.rar
(999.3 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
Backup2.rar
(999.84 KiB) Downloaded 26 times
Backup1.rar
(1000.63 KiB) Downloaded 32 times

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PhilThib
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Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:42 am

Thanks, we'll check that out. For the complete save, you can use WeTransfer service, as you can send with it up to 2 Gb of data free of charge. Zip everything and ship it to my email pthibaut@ageod.net
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Captain_Orso
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Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:00 am

Tyr wrote:I am going to have replay a GC to get back up to Schönbrunn. And yes, Bavaria is part of the French Alliance, just as they were prior to Pressburg.

Under Steam. I hae Steamapps/common/Wars of Napoleon. This is - allegedly - the main folder for WON within Steam. However, with that folder I have Matrix Games (which has a separate launcher) and NGC (which appears to have copies of all the files in Matrix Games). Furthermore, I have a matrix Games/WON folder in my Programs (x86) files.

I ran across WON on a Steam sale for 20% off, and purchased it because it looked fascinating. So I am stuck having to use Steam to access the game. Any attempt to use any of the other start ups gives a flag for serial code, but no way to enter a code. Not that it would matter since my code is hardcoded to Steam. Had I know I'd have such serious issues, and enjoy the game as much as I do, I'd have bought it direct and not had this BS.


If you are running the game under Steam, you should certainly only have 1 installation directory, and that under 'c:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\'. Whether the next lower folder should be 'Matrix Games' or not, IDK. I kind of think not.

In your situation with so many different apparent installation folders, I would uninstall WON through Steam and then manually delete all the other installation folders and their content. You may want to save the ..\Settings\General.opt and Display.opt files to a safe place first, because that is where the options settings are that you make personally. After reinstalling WON through Steam, copy them back into ..\Settings .

Have you manually installed any of the patches, beta or otherwise? That might be why you have at least some of those extra Wars of Napoleon folders.
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Tyr
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Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:24 am

Orso, I am working on a reinstall via Steam. I had to delete the Matrix Games, and 3 other main folders after removing all local Steam WON content. So something is getting crossed. The play folder is 'c:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\wars of Napoleon' Yet the new beta patch adds a folder under 'c:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\wars of Napoleon\Matrix Games' I am using the 1.03 Beta installer; however, Steam gets the official patches and that installs through them. I set the patch path to the Steamapps folder, yet it seemed to make extra folders. I will see how it works after conducting the reinstall. I enjoy computer games - I should not have to BE a programmer to get a game to work.

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Captain_Orso
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Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:31 am

First off, as far as I know, with Steam, you cannot use patches, beta or otherwise, which you download from AGEOD or Slitherine. Steam will, from my understanding, simply note that the installation is not as it was from the Steam installation, therefore corrupted, and overwrite any changes.

That being said, if I am wrong about Steam overwriting changes, if you do want to install, for example, a beta patch, you must manually pick the installation directory during installation of that patch.

I don't have WON installed through Steam, so my knowledge of the Steam handling is limited to my experience with other games. However, I never install any AGEOD games into the folder their installers suggest per default. I always have to explicitly direct patch installations to the correct installation folder, and cannot remember ever having a patch install into an incorrect folder.
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Tyr
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Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:52 am

I listed how to make the beta patch work on Steam and have been using it since yesterday.

If needed, please refer to post:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?43626-Public-beta-patch-for-1-03-version-June-7th&p=376135&viewfull=1#post376135

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picaron
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Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:43 pm

The STEAM AGEOD games can be copied to another directory and work perfectly

:wavey:
Sorprende al enemigo mediante la estrategia y el secreto, mediante lo inesperado y la rapidez de tus operaciones

Dulce bellum inexpertis

Tyr
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Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:09 pm

picaron wrote:The STEAM AGEOD games can be copied to another directory and work perfectly

:wavey:


Yes and no. The entire game can be moved to another directory and it does work fine in terms of execution and play. However, if you enjoy using the battle planner and are playing a single player game, a problem arises. The game thinks you are doing a PBEM and (as such) disables the battle planner. Aside from that, you are correct.

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